Author Topic: Question about rules #29 and 31  (Read 12960 times)

Skylight

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Question about rules #29 and 31
« on: December 02, 2009, 10:29:50 AM »
Hello everybody,
I'm new and french speaking, said me if my question is not good writing/ not clear to understand.

Quote
29.   Verbal Declarations / Acting in Turn
Verbal declarations in turn are binding.  Players are required to act in turn.  Action out of turn will be binding if the action to that player has not changed.  A check, call or fold is not considered action changing.
Is a Bet to be considered same as a "Call" or a "Raise" ?

when to consider a bet to be a raise ? minimal amount BB or more, but less of the double of the BB of the played level, is still a Bet ?

Exemple : blinds 200/400, on the turn, player A fold, player B fold, player C want to play, but player D speak instantly and said 1'000. Player C ask to play and bet 700.
Player D could raise to 1'400 or just "Call" ?



« Last Edit: March 30, 2010, 11:39:24 AM by MikeB »

LeScribe

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Re: Question about rules #29
« Reply #1 on: December 02, 2009, 02:14:11 PM »
Ta question est très claire, Skylight ;)

Il ne faut pas considérer un bet comme un raise, mais plutôt comme n'étant ni un check, ni un call, ni un fold.
Dans ce cas, la parole du joueur qui agit prématurément est donc "libérée" si un bet est effectué.

Dans ton exemple, le joueur D n'est plus obligé de miser 1.000 ou même 700. Il peut jeter sa main, caller 700 ou relancer à 1.400 minimum.

Stratégie :

Imagine un joueur expérimenté (A) qui veut faire tapis avec ce qu'il pense être la meilleure main.
Si un joueur après lui (B) parle avant son tour et dit "all-in", alors le joueur A à tout intérêt à ne faire que checker, afin d'obliger B à faire tapis pour pouvoir ensuite le caller.
Si A fais tapis, alors B n'est plus obligé de pousser tout ses jetons et peut jeter sa main, ce qui est bien entendu, une perte pour le joueur A.




Translation for everyone ;)

Your question is very clear, Skylight.

You must not consider the bet as a raise, but rather as a non-check, a non-call and a non-fold.
In that case, the player is released from his early action if a bet is done.

In your example, player D is no more bound to bet 1.000 or even 700. He can now fold his hand, call 700 or raise to 1.400 minimum.


Strategy :

Imagine an advanced player (A) who wants to go all-in with he thinks is the best hand.
If a later player (B) speaks before his turn and says "all-in", then, player A's interest is to check only, in order to oblige B to go all-in and then call him.
If A says all-in, then B is no more bound to push all his chips and can fold his hand, which is, of course, less value for A.

« Last Edit: December 14, 2009, 12:01:56 AM by LeScribe »
Bruno
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pokerfish

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Re: Question about rules #29
« Reply #2 on: December 12, 2009, 03:39:52 PM »
Bonjour LeScribe,
Merci pour le translation.... ma Francais est comci comca.... guess I just proved it>? Your assisting and translating is very much appreciated by us all.
Merci Beaucoup,
toujours,
Jan Fisher
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Linda Johnson

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Re: Question about rules #29
« Reply #3 on: December 13, 2009, 02:04:49 AM »
Skylight et LeScribe,
LeScribe...Il y a un problem avec l'exemple. Dans ce cas avec les blinds de 200-400... le premiere person qui veux raiser est oblige de miser au moins 800... deux fois le grand blind (not 700).

Translation: There is a problem with the example. In this case with blinds of 200-400, the first person who wants to raise must bet at least 800....two times the big blind (not 700).
Linda Johnson

pokerfish

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Re: Question about rules #29
« Reply #4 on: December 13, 2009, 01:43:19 PM »
showoff!
:)
Jan Fisher
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LeScribe

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Re: Question about rules #29
« Reply #5 on: December 13, 2009, 11:55:32 PM »
Skylight et LeScribe,
LeScribe...Il y a un problem avec l'exemple. Dans ce cas avec les blinds de 200-400... le premiere person qui veux raiser est oblige de miser au moins 800... deux fois le grand blind (not 700).

Translation: There is a problem with the example. In this case with blinds of 200-400, the first person who wants to raise must bet at least 800....two times the big blind (not 700).
Linda Johnson


Sorry Linda, but it's an action made on the thurn, so the initial bet can be 700, no ?




By the way, congrats Linda for the very good French speaking !  :)
Did you learn with "our" Patrick Bruel ?
(he always say nice things about you when he comments the WPT on french TV  ;)
« Last Edit: December 14, 2009, 12:03:35 AM by LeScribe »
Bruno
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madkiwi9

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Re: Question about rules #29
« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2010, 02:11:08 AM »
Surely, rule 29# in it's current form is open to abuse?

What is to stop a player going all in every turn, in turn or out of turn?
In a cash game this could spoil the game and give the biggest wallet an unfair advantage?

In my games i use 'forced check and forced call'.

If a player utg raises say 3xbb and sb raises to 10xbb but there are still players to act inbetween, the players inbetween have a choice, if they either just call the 3xbb or fold, if this happens all the way around then sb MUST call and cannot raise or fold! However if a player inbetween raises the 3xbet knowing the sb's intention then betting is open again.

Same as after the flop, say 5 players have paid to see the flop but player 3 out of turn raises, the players before have the option to check in which case player 3 is forced to check, again if one of those players knowing player 3s intention bets then betting is open again.

This has improved play and betting out of turn has stopped nearly completely!
It has stopped any chance of abuse!





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chet

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Re: Question about rules #29
« Reply #7 on: January 10, 2010, 10:11:20 AM »
Surely, rule 29# in it's current form is open to abuse?

What is to stop a player going all in every turn, in turn or out of turn?
In a cash game this could spoil the game and give the biggest wallet an unfair advantage?

In my games i use 'forced check and forced call'.

Madkiwi:  I think you are missing the point of rule #29.  In my interpretation, this rule is not intended to cover the situation you describe, a player repeatedly acting out of turn.  I believe the intent of this rule is to cover, what I will call, the "single instance" of a player acting out of turn.  There are other TDA rules that you can use in the situation where you have players who repeatedly 'act out of turn', ie., #43 Ethical Play, #44 Etiquette Violations and you can always use the good old standby rule #1.

Hope this Helps!!

Nick C

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Re: Question about rules #29
« Reply #8 on: March 20, 2010, 09:50:51 AM »
Hello Skylight,

 I will assume you are describing a no-limit game. The blinds are $200/$400. On the turn you said that players A and B folded. This is where the problems begin. Folding when it is your turn to act, without a bet in front of you, violates rules #43 Ethical Play and #44 Etiquette Violations (as stated by chet). The next problem is defining the $700 wager by player C as a raise. Initiating a bet is not a raise. The next problem is why would player D attempt to make a bet unless there were other players behind him, or he thought that player C checked in front of him, right?
 

  I'm a little late with this response, but it's the first time I've seen it. It might need to be translated but, I think it is worthy of mention. My interpretation of Rule 29 is different than others.  I will zero in on the part in question; Action out of turn will be binding if the action to that player has not changed. A check, call or fold is not considered action changing.  This takes a little too much thought the way it is written.  This might explain it better; In other words, the only action that would negate a verbal bet out of turn is a  bet or a raise by the proper player. period. Example given; player A folds, player B folds (both violate rule #44) and before player C acts, Player D wagers $1400 but the correct player announces that he wants to wager $700 (which is a legal wager). The issue here is, should player D be obligated to his $1400 bet? The answer can be simple if it was an accident because player D did not know player C was in the hand and more importantly, there was no substantial action, then player D should not be held to his $1400 wager and every option should be open to Player D, fold raise or call......Remember, we must always consider the intent of the player. A caution or a warning to the player that he must wait his turn, should be enough. If the player repeats the action after being warned, then he should be held liable to any "out of turn" wager that he announced! I was confused on this ruling myself on a prior discussion.  Another example player A bets, player C raises and skips player B, if the action can be corrected before another player reacts to the incorrect bet, then the action should be backed up to the proper player. If the bet out of turn is followed by another player acting (because he was misled by the wrong bettor), this is considered substantial action.
Nick C
« Last Edit: June 16, 2015, 02:28:49 PM by Nick C »

NupZ_FTAG

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Re: Question about rules #29
« Reply #9 on: March 24, 2010, 04:52:09 AM »
Sorry Linda, but it's an action made on the thurn, so the initial bet can be 700, no ?

By the way, congrats Linda for the very good French speaking !  :)
Did you learn with "our" Patrick Bruel ?
(he always say nice things about you when he comments the WPT on french TV  ;)

Hey, I speak French too, tres bien meme !! (Very well I mean, and not show off.  :D)

So yes, 700 bet is valid, as it's a first bet, and not a raise. ;-) The rule says that a bet should be of 'minimum' the BB.


==>Now I have some questions on this topic:

With BB at 400, what is the minimum re-raise?

# Situation one:
Player A bets 400, player B raise to 800, can player C re-raise to 1200 (i.e + minimum BB) or should he re-raise to 1600 (i.e + minimum Previous Bet/raise)

# Situation two:
Player A bets 700, can player B raise to 1100 (i.e + minimum BB) or should he raise twice the previous bet, i.e 1400... and can player C re-raise with minimum BB or should he re-raise twice the Previous Bet/raise.

I thank you in advance.
NupZ..
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Stuart Murray

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Re: Question about rules #29
« Reply #10 on: March 24, 2010, 09:05:53 AM »
Nupz,

Both situations are governed by TDA rule #31:
31.   Raises 
A raise must be at least the size of the largest previous bet or raise of the current betting round

so situation 1:
bet 400, raise of 400 to 800, the previous bet or raise faced by player c is 400(800 total) so the minimum is 1,200 total (a raise of 400)

situation 2:
700 bet, the size of the previous bet or raise so the minimum is therefore 1,400 total (a raise of 700 more), player c would be governed by the size of player b's bet so for example:
player a bets 700, b raises to 1,850 total (a raise of 1,150) player C must now raise by 1,150 minimum to 3,000 total.

Hope this helps!
Stuart

NupZ_FTAG

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Re: Question about rules #29
« Reply #11 on: March 25, 2010, 06:00:36 AM »
You just made that so easy. ;-)

Thank you, NupZ.
NupZ - FTAG

NupZ_FTAG

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Re: Question about rules #29
« Reply #12 on: March 25, 2010, 09:17:07 AM »
re re..

just one last one to eat your brains a bit, please, thank you, here:

BB is at 400.

Player A bets 400, B goes all in with 900. Technically, Player C can re-raise to 1400 (minimum re-raise being 500 of previous bet/all in)..

 ???(i) am I right?

Question is: What if B went all in 700 only... can Player C re-raise.. since B's all in wasn't a real raise actual, lack of respect towards rule # 31. ;-)

Some people says no, you can only call.. which i agree with.. Others say that only option for C  to raise is to go all-in.. 

 ???(ii) what's your opinion please ?


I understood, but don't remember how, and finally got mixed up .. that there's one situation where a Player (having a bigger stack than the other players in the active hand) who wants to raise, absolutely have to go all-in, else, to just call the previous bet..

 ??? (iii) would you please be kind and provide some food for thought here..


I thank you in advance,
NupZ..
NupZ - FTAG

Nick C

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Re: Question about rules #29
« Reply #13 on: March 25, 2010, 12:14:06 PM »
The example that you gave is for no-limit. The answer is player C should be able to raise because the all-in wager was not a complete raise (100% is what I would prefer).  Player C could fold, call the $700 or raise to a total of $800 or more. The important part of rule #31 that is not mentioned; When the all-in player (B) makes the action only raise of $300 for a total bet of $700, it will not reopen the betting to player A (the initial bettor) unless player C completes the raise. I hope I am making this a little clearer. Bottom line, this rule will be addressed at the next meeting per Jan Fisher.

Nick C

Stuart Murray

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Re: Question about rules #29
« Reply #14 on: March 25, 2010, 05:32:04 PM »
Nupz,

in the 400/900 situation player c faces a riase of 500 to 900, has not had action yet so can do anything, raise 500 more min, fold, call.

in the 300 more situation player c still can raise again (a minimum of 400 to 1100).

The important thing to remember is that player c has not yet acted in the hand so can do what he wants.  Heres a situation where the action only bet does not reopen the betting round:

blinds 200/400
on the flop player a checks, player b pushes all-in for 350, player c calls 350, action goes back to A.  He can only call 350 or fold as he has given up his right to raise by checking the flop

example 2
blinds 200/400
player A checks the flop, player b bets 1000, player c pushes all-in for 1800, action goes back to a (who can raise this time) who calls, player b wants to raise but is not permitted to do so as the 1800 all-in is action only (not a complete raise). (had player a raised b could of went over the top again)

At no point in time is a player required if raising to go all-in if they can raise the pot.

hope this helps!