Author Topic: Question about rule #23  (Read 18533 times)

D.C.

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Question about rule #23
« on: November 29, 2009, 07:24:01 AM »
Hello all.

Rule #23 says that a player must be at the table to have a live hand.

Situation arose that player A moved allin and player B pondered a call. It was near the bubble for the FT of a big tournament last month. While B was thinking, A stood up and went to the rail to be close to his friends that were cheering for him.

How would you rule?
Devanir "D.C." Campos
Brazilian Series of Poker Tournament Director

chet

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Re: Question about rule #23
« Reply #1 on: November 29, 2009, 10:29:21 AM »
This is not a new rule, but it was revised at the last Summit. 

If this is the 1st instance of a player leaving the table, I would call him/her over, explain the rule and give a warning that the next time would result in a penalty.  If this is not the 1st time OR if this is a common practice by this person, I would skip the warning and go directly to a penalty.  The way the rule is worded, the penalty would be to rule that players hand dead.

I understand that this behavior makes for "good television", so I might be inclined to be somewhat more lenient if the event is being filmed, but there is NO EXCUSE for not being at your seat when it is your turn to act.

Hope this helps!

D.C.

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Re: Question about rule #23
« Reply #2 on: November 29, 2009, 01:31:28 PM »
Chet,

The question really is: if you rule his hand dead and his bet was going allin, does he automatically lose the hand and gets busted?

Devanir "D.C." Campos
Brazilian Series of Poker Tournament Director

DaveChimp

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Re: Question about rule #23
« Reply #3 on: November 29, 2009, 02:34:18 PM »
I find this answer interesting because I thought that a player could not fold when all-in. The hand must be faced and dealt to the river. The dealer then awards the pot.

Is this not so? ???

chet

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Re: Question about rule #23
« Reply #4 on: November 29, 2009, 07:48:25 PM »
D.C. 

Rule #23 reads:  "Players must remain at the table if they have a live hand."  I will grant you this can probably be interpreted in different ways, but, in my opinion given the words used, specifically the term "live hand", I can make the argument that if the player is not at the table, then the hand is NOT live.  A hand that is NOT live, is dead, is it not?  In most cases, I believe that I would not make a ruling until the action came back to that player.  If he/she was not at the table, for instance when the hands are tabled and read, I believe I would rule that hand dead, otherwise what is the purpose of the rule? 

That said, looking at the later post by DaveChimp

This has nothing to do with folding an all-in bet.  The rule that applies there is rule #9 which requires (emphasis added) to turn all remaining hands face up once all betting action is completed in an all-in situation.  Since rule #9 requires the hand to be turned face up (tabled), rule #8 says "Cards Speak" AND rule #10 says, "Dealers cannot kill a winning hand that was tabled and was obviously the winning hand...".   It would not be within the rules for a player to fold once all-in.

This is a similar to the situation you have when action is folded around to the SB and the BB is not at the table or the seat is being held for an absent player.  The BB cannot win the hand and the pot is awarded to the SB.

I would be really interested in reading a response from MikeB, Pokerfish or one of the other TDA folks.

Hope this helps!

LeScribe

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Re: Question about rule #23
« Reply #5 on: November 30, 2009, 05:17:23 AM »
Wait, wait, wait...

Quote from: TDA Rules
23. Action Pending
A player must remain at the table if he has a live hand.

My understanding of this sentence is that IF the player can act or has to act, he must stay at the table.

For example, he limps before the flop, then stand up and walk away and then, when the flop is given, he hasn't returned to the table.
If everyone checks, his hand can still be live, but if someone bets, his hand is dead, since he's not here to act...

It's very different in the situation posted by D.C., because player A cannot act anymore since he's all-in !
So, my judgment is to say his hand is still live and go to the showdown if player B calls his all-in, even if collapsed due to the adrenaline...

(if he's dead, it's  different rule...)  ;D
Bruno
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pokerfish

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Re: Question about rule #23
« Reply #6 on: December 03, 2009, 11:08:23 AM »
Sorry the TDA has been quiet. We too are getting used to the new format along with our holidays and such. We are discussing this as you each present some interesting input. We'll post a reply shortly. Please don't hesitate to email us at asktheboard@pokertda.com if we don't reply here in a timely manner.
Thanks for all of the input and hope you are enjoying the new site. Our web guys did an amazing job, eh?
Jan Fisher
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LeScribe

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Re: Question about rule #23
« Reply #7 on: December 03, 2009, 04:33:15 PM »
Thanks for all of the input and hope you are enjoying the new site. Our web guys did an amazing job, eh?
Jan Fisher

Yes, they do !

Thank you all TDA members and webmasters for this new forum format, way better to discuss than the blog format ;)
Bruno
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Chief45

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Re: Question about rule #23
« Reply #8 on: December 06, 2009, 11:32:41 PM »
Player A has as live a hand as you can get.  He has already completed all of the action he can.  Regardless of if he is in his seat or standing at the rail, his hand is live, cannot be killed. 

The action at this time is on B.  He is the one that cannot leave the table or his hand is dead.




Hello all.

Rule #23 says that a player must be at the table to have a live hand.

Situation arose that player A moved allin and player B pondered a call. It was near the bubble for the FT of a big tournament last month. While B was thinking, A stood up and went to the rail to be close to his friends that were cheering for him.

How would you rule?

pokerfish

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Re: Question about rule #23
« Reply #9 on: December 06, 2009, 11:38:03 PM »
Pretty much the consensus with the TDA board is that as long as the player is back in time to turn up his hand it is live. Players are "going to the rail" as TV has made it seem acceptable. Without more information, the hand would be live if the player, in a timely manner, was there to turn it up. That said, everyone should be cautioned not to go far... and actually (without the drama of TV) should remain at the table as the opponent should have the opportunity to see the bettor.
Hope this helps. Sorry it took so long to get back to this thread... we all are learning the new format too and are a bit negligent to doing so in a timely fashion!
Jan Fisher
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Dave Lamb

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Re: Question about rule #23
« Reply #10 on: December 07, 2009, 07:27:43 PM »
I agree with everyone that believes a warning and then a penalty are in order. It is never a great idea to kill a hand if any other option is available. We want to avoid rewarding the opponent(s) with a windfall pot when considering penalties for behavior or procedure violations. The knowledge that there is an escalating penalty enforcement should be a huge deterrent.
There are no rules stating who is responsible to turn up hands once all action is complete with all-in players. It could be anyone...
9.   Face Up
All cards will be turned face up once a player is all-in and all betting action is complete.


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Martin L. Waller

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Re: Question about rule #23
« Reply #11 on: December 07, 2009, 09:52:01 PM »
OK, now Iím confused.

In the Certification exam there is a question about a player going all-in and leaving the table to go to the restroom. The answer was that action would be paused until the player returned.

I understand not folding a wining hand but how can you hold action on one of many tables?

Iíve had all of the players of a final table or sit & go pause action for a joint restroom break. This was usually a cover for split negotiations.

pokerfish

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Re: Question about rule #23
« Reply #12 on: December 07, 2009, 11:37:22 PM »
OK, now Iím confused.

In the Certification exam there is a question about a player going all-in and leaving the table to go to the restroom. The answer was that action would be paused until the player returned.

I understand not folding a wining hand but how can you hold action on one of many tables?

Iíve had all of the players of a final table or sit & go pause action for a joint restroom break. This was usually a cover for split negotiations.


Regarding holding up a hand while one player went to the restroom is an error if the site says it. Please direct us to that item? This is not true however an entire (100% compliance) final table could agree to a short additional break IMO.
Thanks,
Jan
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vilote

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Re: Question about rule #23
« Reply #13 on: December 12, 2009, 01:26:47 PM »
Hello all, and what if a player who is all-in leaves the place? Is his hand dead, because heís not present at the showdown? Or must the dealer turn his cards up, and award him the pot, if he wins?
Thanks

emc300

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Re: Question about rule #23
« Reply #14 on: December 12, 2009, 01:49:01 PM »
Vilote, if they leave and you know that they left, then their hand is dead, period.  That is the same to me as a player moving all in, getting a call and then mucking their hand because they are trying to leave.  "They no stay, they no play." (and you may quote me ha-ha)
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