Author Topic: Chip count when all in?  (Read 7959 times)

bsjseck

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Chip count when all in?
« on: August 12, 2010, 01:51:38 PM »
Is there any requirement to count a players chips when making a big push or going all in?  I understand that no one is entitled to a count until their turn but it is also my understanding that all a player has to do is make their chips clearly visible.  For example, I saw this in a WSOP circuit event.  Player A pushes all in.  Player B, in turn, requests a chip count.  Player A says "My chips are clearly visible".  Their chips were definitely clearly visible and neatly stacked.  The dealer would not count them.  Has anyone else ever seen this or similar situations?  What should be the ruling?  I always thought that the dealer could count the chips  only when asked and allowed to by the all in player.  So I agree with the dealer.  If the dealer cannot count them, can the floor be requested to count them?

Thanks for any insight!

chet

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Re: Chip count when all in?
« Reply #1 on: August 12, 2010, 06:02:22 PM »
TDA Rule 35:

35.   Pot Size
Players are entitled to be informed of the pot size in pot-limit games only.  Dealers will not count the pot in limit and no-limit games.

I can make the argument that once a player says or indicates "all in", those chips are in the pot.  That said, I personally believe that any player, yet to act subsequent to an "all in", has the right to know the exact amount of that wager, provided the request is made
"in turn".

For example, there is at least one visually impaired player on the tournament circuit (at least there used to be).  Is this person not entitled to know the amount being wagered.  While he was assisted, if I remember correctly his assistant was strictly limited to telling him his hole cards and the cards on the board.  I could easily be wrong, but I don't think his assistant was allowed to give him information as to bet size.

My ruling would be that the player which the action is on, has the right to know the size of the bet and if the betting player will not state the amount of the wager, then the dealer has the obligation to do so.  For example, I know of several places that use black chips, purple chips and dark blue chips.  Personally, I have a difficult time telling the difference, so I have to rely on either the player or the dealer.  That said, there has to be some 'reasonableness' in these requests.  I have no problem rejecting the request if the chip stack is totally clear or if the player is abusing this request, etc.

Hope this helps.

Nick C

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Re: Chip count when all in?
« Reply #2 on: August 13, 2010, 08:54:08 AM »
I have to agree with Chet. If a player wants to consider calling a bet, or raising, or even folding, I think they are entitled to know how much is in the pot. I would think that a dealer would be obligated to count down the bet, if a request was made by the player facing a bet.

Stuart Murray

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Re: Chip count when all in?
« Reply #3 on: August 13, 2010, 11:39:31 PM »
Agreed with Chet and Nick,

whilst a player is not entitled to be informed of the POT size a bet or raise they are entitled to know the size of, and the dealer should verify the bet or raise being faced by the player.

Regards
Stuart

DCJ001

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Re: Chip count when all in?
« Reply #4 on: August 17, 2010, 07:04:54 PM »
The question in the original post is much simpler than everyone is making it out to be.

The player in question is not asking for the size of the pot. And, if he were to ask for the size of the pot, he should be told "No," in a no limit hold'em game. He's also not asking for the amount of a player's stack.

The player in question is asking for the amount of the bet. Whether it's the amount of the big blind, or if it's an all in bet, a player whose turn it is is entitled to ask the dealer to count the amount of the bet.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2010, 07:09:19 PM by DCJ001 »