Author Topic: Player goes all in and leaves?  (Read 14251 times)

bj03sm

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Player goes all in and leaves?
« on: July 12, 2010, 11:32:47 AM »
What would be the best course of action in this situation. A player is wanting to leave and says I am all in and pushes his chips in the middle before the dealer has completed the deal. He then leaves the room and leaves his chips in the middle. The action is folded around to the big blind who calls the all in. I am a little torn because an all in hand cannot be killed, but he was not present when his second card was dealt to him. He did however declare all in before leaving the room. Would you declare him all in and if someone calls and loses to him award him the pot and just blind him off?

Nick C

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Re: Player goes all in and leaves?
« Reply #1 on: July 12, 2010, 11:58:04 AM »
Who said an all-in hand can not be killed? If the owner of the hand is not present to turn over the hand, the hand should be mucked. Another player turning over the hand would break the one player to a hand rule, and the dealer should never turn it over. There is also the rule of a player should remain at the table if he has a live hand. (TDA rule #23)

Stuart Murray

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Re: Player goes all in and leaves?
« Reply #2 on: July 12, 2010, 03:21:26 PM »
Couple of rules you can use here:

9.   Face Up All cards will be turned face up once a player is all-in and all betting action is complete.

22.   At Your Seat A player must be at his or her seat by the time all players have been dealt complete initial hands in order to have a live hand. A player must be at his/her seat to call time.

As he announced all-in prior to the last hole card being dealt and not after it makes it simple for me - his hand is dead and his chips do not play in your situation, I'm satisfied he's not coming back so I can lift his chips and remove them from play.

Now, heres where it gets complicated (by the way Nick has a valid point about the one player to a hand but in this situation the hole cards are not finished so anything said/done does not stand until the start of the round, which is when the button has recieved their last card) If he announces all-in when the pre-flop betting round has begun the bet stands, even if he walks away from the table after doing it, if the action changes to him by another player raising i'm still leaving the chips in as he has made his intentions clear and has left so cannot re-consider so his all-in stands and whatever happens during the hand is just that and his hand must go to show-down as per rule 9 above (you are correct when you say "you cannot kill an all-in hand" - unless it is an improper hole card/3 cards/dealer kills accidentally etc. In that situation the hand plays out and if he busts another player tough, then the chips come off at the end of the hand but if the other players wins he gets to keep them.

Best Regards
Stuart

AleaLeedsCardRoom

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Re: Player goes all in and leaves?
« Reply #3 on: July 12, 2010, 03:48:36 PM »
I have a question.......
In the situation where he announces after the deal, and gets only one caller his cards are tabled and live.

BUT
What if he got more than one caller, betting action would not be complete and so his cards would not be face up and live as per rule #9, but he is not at the table so his hand should be dead as per rule #22.
Also if we are being really picky, say he was under the gun and did this, betting action is not complete until the big blind has acted on his bet, so if he walks away from the table before this happens is his hand dead as per rule #22??

Lewis

Stuart Murray

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Re: Player goes all in and leaves?
« Reply #4 on: July 12, 2010, 03:58:16 PM »
Hi Lewis,

the answer is the same as above no his hand is not-dead and must be tabled after betting is complete between the other two players.

Rule 22 is very specific and you will  notice I answer the original situation with ease as #22 covers it fully, his hand will not be dead if the deal is complete and then walks away - the same can be said about a player who gets up during the hand facing a big bet - his hand would not be dead either, although he would likely receive a penalty if he strayed too far from the table.

Remember 23 also: action pending, The player in the example I laid out has furfilled neither 22 nor 23 criteria and has satisfied those rules and is not in breach of either.

The only time I would not have a problem in killing an all-in players hand is when it is a dead stack that has finally been placed all-in in the BB or SB seat, he has not been at the table for the start of the hand so therefore this meets the rule 22 criteria and technically we can kill the hand without it going to showdown but that does bend the rule 9 criteria.

Regards
Stu

AleaLeedsCardRoom

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Re: Player goes all in and leaves?
« Reply #5 on: July 12, 2010, 04:03:09 PM »
Right thanks, the reason I ask is because it happened in one of our cash games.  In which when you are all in and betting is complete you do not have to table your hand enless you wish to claim the pot.  So if the player is not there then what should happen??  As another player tabling the hand would not be one to a hand, and the dealer tabling the hand has many issues attached to it.

Stuart Murray

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Re: Player goes all in and leaves?
« Reply #6 on: July 12, 2010, 04:13:50 PM »
errmm, big difference between tourney and cash as i'm sure your aware cash is just that it's one hand nothing before or after matters, tournaments the game is more important than the hand.  I'm just trying to rack my brain about a good post similar regarding a cash game - when I find it i will post it up.

Okay bingo found the ruling about cash games and it is very different from tournaments as i suspected:

http://www.thehendonmob.com/tournament_director3/player_leaves_table_when_all_in

Stu

AleaLeedsCardRoom

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Re: Player goes all in and leaves?
« Reply #7 on: July 12, 2010, 04:38:41 PM »
Great!!!  Cheers, the second TD seems to confuse/contradict himself but a nice clear verdict:)

Stuart Murray

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Re: Player goes all in and leaves?
« Reply #8 on: July 12, 2010, 04:43:18 PM »
lol I just noticed that myself, not like Thomas as he's one of the best in the world, ranking alongside Matt and Jack Effel! I would say he meant to write 'should be mucked'

Stu
« Last Edit: July 12, 2010, 04:47:01 PM by Stuart Murray »

Nick C

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Re: Player goes all in and leaves?
« Reply #9 on: July 12, 2010, 04:59:04 PM »
Hello to all,

 Here we go again....another unclear ruling. Stuart I looked at the post from the Hendon Mob and there were mixed responses one TD said the cards should be tabled, and that was only when the action got down to heads-up. How can we have players go all-in and leave the table and expect to compete for the pot? Tournament or not. What happens when there are multiple players in the hand? What happens to the proper order of showdown at the end of the hand? They actually have rules where a player suffering a heart attack, or other serious illness must still respond within a minute and ten seconds after they are put on the clock. Why should an absent player have more time? What will our tournaments become if we allow players to go all-in, and then leave the casino? Wouldn't it be easier and make more sense to change the rule? How's this one; If you go all-in, and leave the table, your hand will be mucked. Period!

AleaLeedsCardRoom

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Re: Player goes all in and leaves?
« Reply #10 on: July 12, 2010, 05:11:54 PM »
TBH i agree with Nick on this one,

Lewis

Stuart Murray

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Re: Player goes all in and leaves?
« Reply #11 on: July 13, 2010, 03:01:22 AM »
In brief no it would not.  There was no difference of opinion between the TD's on the Hendon Mob, some merely mentioned that in a TOURNEY the hand must be tabled.  All were in agreement that the hand must be killed in a RING game.

In simple terms the hand cannot be killed in a tournament, if we adopted your rule we would end up with chip dumping galore going on, as it would be simple for a player to collude and pass his chips to his friend on the table.

At no point did I Say along this route that I like these kinds of rules, but they are the rules and they have been created by better men than me so I abide by them, unclear or not, to have each and every situation dictated by a rule effectively ends the need for TD's!

With regard to a player having to respond who is having a heart attack - now that's just plain ridiculous and not in the spirit of the game.  In response to correct showdown order it is unchanged as per my earlier post.

Stuart
« Last Edit: July 13, 2010, 03:07:28 AM by Stuart Murray »

Nick C

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Re: Player goes all in and leaves?
« Reply #12 on: July 13, 2010, 04:42:44 PM »
Stuart,

 I love this discussion. First of all, I doubt that the rules were written by better men than you. You are correct when you say that you might not agree with the rules, but we should still abide by them. For the most part, the rulemakers did an unbeilievable job. It wasn't easy to come up with Robert's Rules, or the TDA rules. Many hours of research and dedication, without financial reward, were put into the making of rules for poker. The task was enormus and I appreciate everything they have done. That does not mean that I have to agree with all of them, and it should not stop me from voicing my opinion. The rules are far from perfect and we need input from people like you and everyone that participates on this site. I will not argue with anyone about a written rule, and I know that you know them better than most, but I think many could be improved and that's what I want to do. My poker playing days started over 50 years ago, I was a dealer and a floorman in Las vegas and I am still teaching poker dealing. I consider myself qualified enough to debate anyone when it comes to rules for poker. I want nothing more than to assist, if I can, in making the existing rules easier to understand.

Now that I got totally off the subject......Who is going to turn over the absent all-in players cards? They don't answer that one.

Thanks for listening.

bj03sm

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Re: Player goes all in and leaves?
« Reply #13 on: July 13, 2010, 08:28:11 PM »
I am glad that you guys have given your opinion on this as I was a little confused at the time because this has never happend to me and there were multiple rulings to consider. My thinking was that you could leave his money in the middle and if someone called and lost to him then the pot would be added to his stack and blinded off from that point on. Or since he left the table before his second card was delt to him then I would pull his stack back out of the middle and declare his hand dead and blind him from that point on. Does it change anything that he was standing at his seat when the dealer started to deal and pushed him chips in and declared all in in the dark then walked off? Would that action stand as long as the action did not change in front of him? Nick also asks a great question of who turns over his cards?

Stuart Murray

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Re: Player goes all in and leaves?
« Reply #14 on: July 14, 2010, 02:58:00 AM »
Hi
Would that action stand as long as the action did not change in front of him?
I say yes it would, RROP says a player may retract their all-in and reconsider their actions, the player has made his intentions clear and is not present to 'retract and reconsider'
Nick also asks a great question of who turns over his cards?
The dealer is fine to turn over the all-in cards, in the same way as a dealer should protect the muck fro all-in hands and then flip them at showdown where a player does not the same should be done in this situation
Does it change anything that he was standing at his seat when the dealer started to deal and pushed him chips in and declared all in in the dark then walked off?
It does, his hand can be killed by the dealer as he is not in his seat, but then were killing his hand anyway because he walked away before the last hole card was dealt.

Stuart