Author Topic: Strange situation: player shows his cards  (Read 9288 times)

Luca P.

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Strange situation: player shows his cards
« on: September 14, 2010, 07:12:34 AM »
Hi all, 2 days ago I faced this situation:

3 tables remaining.
on a 6-handed table there was a big hand between two players.

let's assume P1 and P2 are the two players.

at the river, P1 checks, then P2 moved all-in.
P1 started to think about calling or not.
Now P2 showed his hole cards to a player who folded pre-flop, we will call him P3.

Now that P3 saw P2's cards, he said laudly "ehehe he has two pairs!"

P1, listening to this, immediately made the call because he had a straight.
P1 turned over a straight, P2 turned over a FLUSH! not two pairs.

So P1 argued with the dealer, and they called me.
They told me the situation, and based on what I heard (that is what I've just written here), I gave the pot to P2 who won the hand with the flush, and 2 rounds of penality to P3 who miscalled the hand.

What would you do? :(
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Stuart Murray

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Re: Strange situation: player shows his cards
« Reply #1 on: September 14, 2010, 07:26:53 AM »
yeh, i'd award to pot to the flush and also give him a penalty for violating the one player to a hand rule, verbal declarations asto the contents of ones hand are not binding however deliberately miscalling a hand shall result in a penalty, both to the P2 and P3, I would also make sure it was a stern penalty given the situation where it was for a considerable amount of chips.

Regards
Stuart

Luca P.

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Re: Strange situation: player shows his cards
« Reply #2 on: September 14, 2010, 07:35:57 AM »
Ok stuart, let me understand.
Yeah I know there's the one player to a hand rule, but also as stated on RROP,
Quote
Showdown, comma 6:
Show one, show all. Players are entitled to receive equal access to information about the contents of another player's hand. After a deal, if cards are shown to another player, every player at the table has a right to see those cards. During a deal, cards that were shown to an active player who might have a further wagering decision on that betting round must immediately be shown to all the other players. If the player who saw the cards is not involved in the deal, or cannot use the information in wagering, the information should be withheld until the betting is over, so it does not affect the normal outcome of the deal. Cards shown to a person who has no more wagering decisions on that betting round, but might use the information on a later betting round, should be shown to the other players at the conclusion of that betting round. If only a portion of the hand has been shown, there is no requirement to show any of the unseen cards. The shown cards are treated as given in the preceding part of this rule.
so there's no point in assigning a penality to P2 who only shows his cards to a player not in the hand (folded pre-flop)...

I don't understand how it works srry
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AleaLeedsCardRoom

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Re: Strange situation: player shows his cards
« Reply #3 on: September 14, 2010, 11:47:13 AM »
he showed his cards to another player while the hand was still being played, ergo violating the 1 player to a hand rule

chet

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Re: Strange situation: player shows his cards
« Reply #4 on: September 14, 2010, 02:08:00 PM »
By showing his hand, he has given that player information about how he plays his hole cards.  That information was not made available to the other players at the table, therefore, P3 received information that he/she was not entitled to.  Therefore, I would assess P2 a very substantial penalty (I can see the 2 rounds or even more) and P3 a somewhat lesser penalty for not keeping his/her mouth shut.  This situation is serious enough to totally bypass any warning and go straight to the penalty.

Both players violated TDA Rule 41.

Hope this helps!!

Stuart Murray

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Re: Strange situation: player shows his cards
« Reply #5 on: September 14, 2010, 04:02:24 PM »
ditto previous responses of chet and lewis,

Poker is an individual game and players are required to keep their hole cards to themselves unless at showdown, or folding when facing a bet heads-up.  Showing other players your cards violates the one player to a hand rule, and is not in the best interests of the tournament.  This rule has been violated before you give consideration to show one, show all.  Show one, show all, merely ensures that all players have access to the information that has already been shared.

Remember also that show one, show all, requires the information that has been shared to be given at a relevant point in time to all other players at the table, or at least in good faith tell all other players what the shown card(s) were.

Best Regards
Stuart

Oddvark

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Re: Strange situation: player shows his cards
« Reply #6 on: September 14, 2010, 08:54:58 PM »
By showing his hand, he has given that player information about how he plays his hole cards.  That information was not made available to the other players at the table, therefore, P3 received information that he/she was not entitled to.  Therefore, I would assess P2 a very substantial penalty (I can see the 2 rounds or even more) ....

I have to say that I never see the "one player to a hand" applied so strictly simply on the basis of showing another player one's hand.  If P2 had shown P3 his hand and P3 had not said a word or reacted in any way, everything in the language quoted above would still be true -- but would it merit a penalty of "2 rounds or even more"?  I often see players do this without incident.  Even more frequently, I see players show their neighbors the cards that they are folding, which still gives the neighboring players information not available to other players at the table.

There are obviously good reasons to discourage players from exposing their cards, even to non-active players (as the incident that started this thread demonstrates), but the responses don't reflect the way I see the rules enforced in practice.  If anything, the player's hand will be shown to the entire table after the hand is over (as per the RRoP cited above).  Actual penalties only occur if the 3rd player does something wacky like in this situation.

As an aside, I find it funny that P1 was perfectly happy to take advantage of information to which he was not entitled when he thought that P3 was telling the truth, but then gets upset when the tables are turned.  And I would never take P3 at face value in those circumstances.

chet

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Re: Strange situation: player shows his cards
« Reply #7 on: September 15, 2010, 01:00:34 PM »
What is not known is whether P2 and P3 know each other.  They may be in collusion, they may not.  Regardless, it is very close to cheating to give one player information that is not given to other players.

Now as to my previous comment, a lot would depend upon the experience level of P2.  If I knew that P2 was very inexperienced, I may only assess a one hand penalty while I explain the rules.  On the other hand if P2 is an experienced player, who is constantly "pushing the envelope" to see what he/she can get away with, I have no hesitation of assessing a substantial penalty.

While I want players to have a good time, I also want EVERY player to be assured that my game is straightforward and totally on the up and up.

Hope this helps!