Author Topic: Strange Betting  (Read 11843 times)

Nick C

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Re: Strange Betting
« Reply #15 on: June 29, 2010, 07:27:28 AM »
             
 pineforest,

 If the dealers are trained to "call" the game, that usually solves those problems. Example: No-limit Hold'em blinds are 100/200 pre-flop, Dealer tells UTG it's 200 to call, UTG pushes 5 100 count chips into the pot, the dealer would announce "RAISE" nice and clear. The dealer would then look to the next player and say it's 500 to call and so on around the table. Too many dealers loose control of a game because they let the players call all the action.
 

pineforest

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Re: Strange Betting
« Reply #16 on: June 29, 2010, 01:58:36 PM »
In my house, our dealers, (in tournament only) do not anounce the amounts of bets or raises until asked by a player and the action has to be on the player that is asking.  Dealers clearly say "bet" or "raise" that is it.  Most places I play dealer do announce the amouts of bets and raises.  I've even seen dealers say thing like " its only 500 more to call"  "only!!!" that is a big no no for dealers.  I hate it when dealers talk a player into calling me if im beat or bluffing.  they need to be impartial and dealer training is a big part, but when you hire an bunch of temp dealers for big events many of them are difficult to retrain.

higavin

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Re: Strange Betting
« Reply #17 on: June 29, 2010, 02:20:47 PM »
Hi Guys

Very Interesting topic and I have recently had to introduce a "House Rule" within my events to stop it as it causes nothing but aggravation for the players, dealers and Floor persons and I as a TD.

"Silent / Undeclared actions are Not Allowed, in the instance where a player throws / places multiple (2 or more) chips into the betting area without declaring their intent or action prior to the chips entering the betting area shall have their chips returned, in the instances of repeat violations the offending player shall be subject to escalating Penalties"

This whole scenario is so easily avoided by a simple world from the player.. "Raise" / "Call" ect... Yes, good table management can also avoid this but it "Burns time from the Blinds" whilst it gets sorted out, (Bad for the Players) Causes Confusion, (Bad for the Players and Dealer) and can lead to arguments (Bad for everyone), a simple word "Raise" / "Call" makes things so much clearer, fairer and simpler for all concerned.

To put it short I strongly believe that placing the responsibility directly with the player to "Clearly define their intended actions prior to any action being taken by that player" is the way forward

As I have previously said I have introduced this rule into my Tournaments (and all other) events (about 3 months ago) and everyone is (now) happy with it, for me its working and has solved a lot of unnecessary grief.

A Simple solution to a Simple Problem..

What do you tell the players with physical challenges that prevent them from verbalizing their actions?  There are several players in our rooms wtihout the power of speech.

Do you tell the guy who claims he said raise quietly that he is penalized and then not penalize the player who did a "thumbs up" sign to signify his intention to raise. 

Not trying to be a nit here although I'm sure some will think so. But the rule seems akward expecially if the floors are getting calls to resolve the problem more than once per tournament.

Dealers are paid to watch the action and announce raises, all ins, calls, checks, etc.  They should be clarifying action when it appears ambigous. Inthe incident in the OP, asking the player "Call or raise?" is reasonable.  I deal and I floor, better training for your dealers is a better option, IMO, then trying to retrain all of your players.  Better dealers, fewer floor calls, fewer rules to be broken.

Imagine a new player coming to your room, making the FT short stacked, shoving all in, without comment, and getting sat out for an orbit because he did not verbalize it, then he is blinded out while sitting out.  Have you just lost a possible repeat customer because of a rule no other room has in place?


Mrsvelvet

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Re: Strange Betting
« Reply #18 on: June 29, 2010, 06:11:19 PM »
What do you tell the players with physical challenges that prevent them from verbalizing their actions?  There are several players in our rooms wtihout the power of speech.

Do you tell the guy who claims he said raise quietly that he is penalized and then not penalize the player who did a "thumbs up" sign to signify his intention to raise. 

Not trying to be a nit here although I'm sure some will think so. But the rule seems akward expecially if the floors are getting calls to resolve the problem more than once per tournament.

Dealers are paid to watch the action and announce raises, all ins, calls, checks, etc.  They should be clarifying action when it appears ambigous. Inthe incident in the OP, asking the player "Call or raise?" is reasonable.  I deal and I floor, better training for your dealers is a better option, IMO, then trying to retrain all of your players.  Better dealers, fewer floor calls, fewer rules to be broken.

Imagine a new player coming to your room, making the FT short stacked, shoving all in, without comment, and getting sat out for an orbit because he did not verbalize it, then he is blinded out while sitting out.  Have you just lost a possible repeat customer because of a rule no other room has in place?


[/quote]

Hi all

We took into consideration that at some point a player with speech difficulties or even no speech at all may be present and decided that the dealer would be required to "pay special attention" when they are present as they would any player with a disability, I do understand and respect your point, however if the WSOP can make it Possible for the attendance of Blind Players (Sub Clauses to the one player per hand rules ect) then surely we can also make an allowance for speech impediments in this situation as well? It is a case of working out the details to make it work for all concerned then adjust accordingly and (IMO) the best people for the job of working out the "Fine" details is in fact the TDA

I agree that good table management is essential and should be promoted as in the end it benefits everyone, regards "a mumbling unclear player" a good dealer would indeed clarify the action before play continues but as people have posted before there are different procedures for dealers in place at different venues. I have one regular Cash Player who is disabled and not physically able to move chips without the aid of a mouth piece and it takes him more than "one additional movement" to move his chips, of Course we don't penalise him but we do make reasonable allowances for his unique situation and it works.

Our HR-9a is aimed to reduce complications at the table due to unclear actions being made (thus causing problems) and has proved to be very successful for us, it is a rule that I am monitoring very closely and will continue to do so as at some point I am sure something un-expected may arise but that is the same for all new rules.

As for "House Rules" - The House has the responsibility to make it's players aware of them & the Players have an equal responsibility to abide by them, Tournaments & Events worldwide have differences (even if only slight) and any player who neglects to be aware of those differences does so at their on peril or even cost, the same applies to Casino's / Card Rooms / Leagues / Cash Games right across the Spectrum of this industry.

Stuart mentions the high level of integrity and education that he and his agents have achieved, I absolutely applaud his success, that takes time and considerable effort especially at Local League Levels where players are entering as novices, early education can only ever be a good thing (IMO). As we all know sometimes we look at an issue / problem and have to seek a solution and we hope that the solution is best for all concerned. Now we have the TDA & an open forum to discuss and understand with huge amounts of knowledge and experience to call upon.

Keeping things simple is the best for all concerned and in this instance I believe players should make their intentions clear before acting. The floor is open...

Nick C

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Re: Strange Betting
« Reply #19 on: June 30, 2010, 05:31:50 AM »
Deborah,
 
 You said it best!