Author Topic: Dealer Error - Pre-exposed flop, turn, and or river  (Read 23856 times)

soda5

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Dealer Error - Pre-exposed flop, turn, and or river
« on: July 02, 2010, 04:06:05 PM »
I need a comment or something that I can print out and show people, the ruling to pre-exposed cards.  1)  If the flop was exposed prematurely without everyone acting?  2)  If the turn was premature?  and 3)  If the river was premature?

Stuart Murray

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Re: Dealer Error - Pre-exposed flop, turn, and or river
« Reply #1 on: July 02, 2010, 04:16:51 PM »
Hi soda,

rather than explain I will quote Robert's Rules of Poker (RROP):


15. If the dealer prematurely deals any cards before the betting is complete, those cards will not play, even if a player who has not acted decides to fold.
16. If the dealer fails to burn a card or burns more than one card, the error should be corrected if discovered before betting action has started for that round. Once action has been taken on a boardcard, the card must stand. Whether the error is able to be corrected or not, subsequent cards dealt should be those that would have come if no error had occurred. For example, if two cards were burned, one of the cards should be put back on the deck and used for the burncard on the next round. On the last round, if there was no betting because a player was all-in, the error should be corrected if discovered before the pot has been awarded, provided the deck stub, boardcards, and burncards are all sufficiently intact to determine the proper replacement card.
17. If the deck stub gets fouled for some reason, such as the dealer believing the deal is over and dropping the deck, the deal must still be played out, and the deck reconstituted in as fair a way as possible.

so for example:  The flop is dealt too early by dealer error, so the burn cards are issued for the turn and river along with the turn and river cards face down before the existing flop is reshuffled back into the stub and a new flop is issued without burning cards, the turn and river can be turned over when required.

I hope that answers your question correctly.

Best Regards
Stuart

soda5

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Re: Dealer Error - Pre-exposed flop, turn, and or river
« Reply #2 on: July 02, 2010, 04:29:12 PM »
Thank you very much

Stuart Murray

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Re: Dealer Error - Pre-exposed flop, turn, and or river
« Reply #3 on: July 02, 2010, 04:31:02 PM »
Anytime!

Stu

Nick C

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Re: Dealer Error - Pre-exposed flop, turn, and or river
« Reply #4 on: July 02, 2010, 08:12:27 PM »
Soda5,
 
 What Stuart quoted is correct. If you are interested in how to handle the premature deal I will explain it to you. I will assume you are refering to a flop game. If the dealer burns and turns the flop before all players have acted that flop will not remain in play. The reason for the rule is as follows: No player is allowed to put chips into the pot, knowing the identity of any card to be dealt. When the dealer burns and places the flop on the table and the last player, or players have been skipped, the flop will be reshuffled into the deck stub and a new deck is used. This is the procedure even if the player decides to fold. The proper method is to leave the burn card on the table and carefully reshuffle the remaining deck stub. (I caution dealers to be extra careful to not expose any cards to players that have live hands). After the player that was skipped decides to call or fold, the new flop will be placed on the table without a burn, (because the original burn was left on the table). If the turn is placed on the board before all action is complete, the card will be set aside (for possible use later). After the skipped player has acted by calling or folding or even raising, the dealer will burn a card and use the proper river card in the turn cards place. After the next betting round, the dealer will shuffle the exposed turn card (that was set aside) into the deck stub and without a burncard place it on the table. If the premature deal takes place on the river card, the card must be reshuffled into the deck stub and a new river is turned, with no burn. 
« Last Edit: April 18, 2012, 06:51:49 AM by Nick C »

AleaLeedsCardRoom

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Re: Dealer Error - Pre-exposed flop, turn, and or river
« Reply #5 on: July 04, 2010, 02:44:25 PM »
I agree with what you are saying, however I hae a question.  My understanding is that we burn cards to prevent boxed or makred cards from having an impact on the hand in progress.  So if the flop is exposed too early and we deal the board as stated, then what would be do if one of the turn/river was boxed or marked, as this would/could give some players an advantage.

Thanks

Stuart Murray

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Re: Dealer Error - Pre-exposed flop, turn, and or river
« Reply #6 on: July 04, 2010, 04:59:52 PM »
Agreed,

It is not a perfect system, but to maintain integrity, the board must be as close to what it should be.  With regard to boxed cards, that is relatively simple as they are treated as meaninless scraps of paper and mucked before the next card in the deck replaces that card.

With regard to marked cards, I agree there is cause for some concern there, I run pub poker so it would be more of a problem for me, but generally speaking marked cards should be immediately identified and replaced or decks changed immediately when discovered so a marked card should never be in circulation for long enough that it would have a questionable impact on the best interests of the game.

Regards
Stuart

Nick C

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Re: Dealer Error - Pre-exposed flop, turn, and or river
« Reply #7 on: July 04, 2010, 08:38:25 PM »
AlealeedsCardRoom,

  I'm not sure I understand why you would question the method used whenever the deck has to be reconstructed. Think about the process, the dealer burned a card and put the flop out before the betting was complete. After the action is corrected, the dealer re-shuffles the deck, leaving the proper burn card on the table, cuts the cards, (and without burning again), puts down the flop. There is no chance to see a marked card, because, the top card after the dealer cuts the deck is part of the flop that is immediately placed on the table. I agree with Stuart when he mentions integrity and an imperfect system, but let's not forget that the dealer messed up by burning and turning before the action was complete. The dealer mistake has consequences, and under the circumstances the method described above has proven to work out best. Stuart also made reference to the board being as close to what it should be. In other words, we should always strive for "proper card" or the card that would have played if no error occurred.
 


AleaLeedsCardRoom

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Re: Dealer Error - Pre-exposed flop, turn, and or river
« Reply #8 on: July 05, 2010, 11:34:54 AM »
Nick C,
I do agree with the method that Stuart stated, it is the one I use.  However in Stuart's earlier post he said that you deal the rest of the board face down (in this situation 2 burns, the turn and river) BEFORE shuffeling the flop back into the deck, and re dealing it.  So marked cards do become an issue here.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2010, 12:14:08 PM by AleaLeedsCardRoom »

Nick C

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Re: Dealer Error - Pre-exposed flop, turn, and or river
« Reply #9 on: July 05, 2010, 03:20:12 PM »
That is the first time that I've heard of the method described by Stuart. As far as "proper card" I like it even better than the method I described, but, like you say, there is more risk of exposing a card, or separating the burn, and the muck from the board. The best solution is to make sure that the dealers don't deal until all action is complete on that betting round. If you notice on my earlier reply I mention the skipped player being the last player to act, because there are different answers to the dealer burning and turning the flop, if the skipped player was followed by substantial action. In that case, the skipped player would have a dead hand and the flop would remain on the table. Example: Player in the 5 seat calls BB, 6 seat calls, 7 seat skipped, 8 seat calls, nine seat folds. The dealer then burns and turns the flop. The flop remains and seat 7 has a dead hand.

I'm expecting to generate a little action on this one.

Stuart Murray

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Re: Dealer Error - Pre-exposed flop, turn, and or river
« Reply #10 on: July 05, 2010, 03:39:02 PM »
there is no hard and fast rules as to how you issue the turn and river face down for later exposure, the reason I have dealers issue them face down in sequence is their can be complications identifying which card is to be used on which street and which is to be a burn card etc, so to ensure this does not happen I have dealers burn cards into the burn pile and layout the remaining streets in position face down.

There is an issue with a marked card being identifyable or a card being exposed, I have already addressed the marked card issue and in the event of a further exposed card that would be dealt with in sequence once the new flop/turn had been issued

Best Regards
Stuart

Nick C

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Re: Dealer Error - Pre-exposed flop, turn, and or river
« Reply #11 on: July 05, 2010, 04:18:23 PM »
Stuart,
 With the problems possible that you described with your method, would you consider the method I described on reply #4 when dealing with premature dealing? There have been times when the deck needed to be reconstructed, for a new flop, and the the turn and river were not needed because a player made a bet after the flop and everyone folded. I remember an incident several years ago in a cash game where I was called over to the table because the dealer burned and placed the turncard (the jack of diamonds) on the board before the betting was complete. After the skipped player called, the Jack was set aside to be shuffled into the deck stub (if needed) and, after burning a card, the turn card was replaced by the proper river card. After that betting round was complete, the dealer reshuffled the Jack into the deck stub, cut the deck and turned the JACK OF DIAMONDS FOR THE RIVER CARD! I don't know who was more relieved, me or the dealer.