Author Topic: I call and raise.....  (Read 8124 times)

Desi

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I call and raise.....
« on: June 25, 2010, 06:27:12 PM »
Action is with the player when he says ' I call, and I'll raise you another xx'
This is not the first time he has played in our games. I ruled it was just call as you cannot call and raise, and as he stated call first its a call. A few players were unhappy with this ruling as they thought his intentions of a raise were clear.
How do you rule?

Nick C

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Re: I call and raise.....
« Reply #1 on: June 25, 2010, 06:56:16 PM »
Desi,
 Your call was correct. That was a "string raise" and is not allowed anywhere. The player should announce his intentions to raise first and then a call, followed by the raise would be accepted. Rules regarding methods for raising have changed but, the string raise remains a constant unacceptable way to bet. A player wishing to raise when it is his turn to act may; say "I raise"and announce how much, or push the desired amount into the betting area (or pot), in one motion. There was a time when a player in a No-limit game could say raise and continue pushing chips into the pot until his arms came to rest at his side. I was surprised recently when I saw Jack McCleland allow a player to announce a raise, put the call into the pot, and then in a separate move , push the amount of the raise into the pot. The best thing to do is know the rules wherever you play. You might be surprised at what you can, and can't do.

MikeB

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Re: I call and raise.....
« Reply #2 on: June 25, 2010, 07:15:51 PM »
Action is with the player when he says ' I call, and I'll raise you another xx'
This is not the first time he has played in our games. I ruled it was just call as you cannot call and raise, and as he stated call first its a call. A few players were unhappy with this ruling as they thought his intentions of a raise were clear.
How do you rule?
His intentions were one thing, but his manner of action was completely different. Once the word "call" comes out, it's a call. Your players will appreciate your clarifying the raising procedure and they'll be more careful next time.

chet

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Re: I call and raise.....
« Reply #3 on: June 25, 2010, 07:22:41 PM »
...I was surprised recently when I saw Jack McCleland allow a player to announce a raise, put the call into the pot, and then in a separate move , push the amount of the raise into the pot...

Nick:  Under TDA Rule 30, Methods of Raising This is acceptable.  The rule says in part, "...(3) verbally declaring "raise" prior to the placement of the amount to call into the pot and then completing the action with one additional motion...."  Whether anyone thinks this is right or wrong is immaterial at this point, it is the current TDA rule. 

I agree with each of you that the correct ruling for the instance at hand is that it is a call. 

Hope this helps!

Nick C

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Re: I call and raise.....
« Reply #4 on: June 25, 2010, 08:01:55 PM »
Chet,
 You are refering to a different post. I will respond on the correct question. Desi did the right thing, that can only be a call. Period.

Nick C

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Re: I call and raise.....
« Reply #5 on: June 25, 2010, 08:04:01 PM »
Chet,

 I was making reference to the rules and how they change through the years. I understand that the ruling that Jack McCleland made is accepted now, (but not everywhere). That is very comon in a pot limit game when a player wants to raise;  he puts the call into the pot and then they figure how much he can raise and he pushes that into the pot. I am not trying to debate every question that is presented on the TDA site. I am trying to give good sound advise. There is a right way and a wrong way to bet and raise in every game, but until TD's and floorpersons enforce the rules, we will continue to have these discussions........How about this one, just say "I RAISE."

Stuart Murray

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Re: I call and raise.....
« Reply #6 on: June 26, 2010, 12:54:13 AM »
agreed with Nick & Mike,  announcing call first can only  ever be allowable as a call.  We do have many a newbie and novice who will come to the live tables and announce "call and raise" I will usually let it slip the first time it goes and speak to them after the hand, and speak to the whole table after the hand and then it usually disappears - that what I do in pub league games.

Larger events I treat differently, if they announce "Call and Raise" it's a call period and if they do it again they will start to get penalties.  With regard to raising by placing the call portion in first the TDA rule and RROP rule is very clear that you must announce "raise" first prior to putting the call portion into the pot, then complete with the raise portion of chips or a statement of "xxx more" or xxx total"

Best Regards
Stuart

Mrsvelvet

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Re: I call and raise.....
« Reply #7 on: June 28, 2010, 09:19:36 AM »
Hi Desi

You made the correct decision, this can only ever be treated as a "Call", as that was the first action announced by the player which then voids the "Raise" (A 2nd action)

Nick C mentions that, Quote, "I was surprised recently when I saw Jack McCleland allow a player to announce a raise, put the call into the pot, and then in a separate move , push the amount of the raise into the pot."

I was at a tournament recently where players were allowed to do this but the players still had to declare "Raise" first, Then the player put the amount of the call in, which the dealer checked and then pulled forward slightly (to seperate the call from the raise) then the player was allowed a second motion for the total raise which the dealer then also checked and confirmed the amount of the raise and new total to the table.

When I politely asked the TD why he stated "Its a House rule, we allow it because it makes it easier for players to understand the amounts in the pot and what they have to call" the key in that sentence is "House Rule"

Interestingly I find that most of the time it is the "Senior Gentleman" that do this so It could be a left over from their old days of Brag, draw, stud ect and even possibly from the old "Movies", (I'll see your $00 and raise you $0) invariably I always get the answer "oh, thats always how i've done it" but after a while they get the hang of it.

pineforest

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Re: I call and raise.....
« Reply #8 on: June 29, 2010, 05:59:03 AM »
Sorry, the first words out of your mouth were call.  Learn to play poker.