POKER TOURNAMENT RULES QUESTIONS & DISCUSSIONS > Poker TDA Rules & Procedures Questions, General

Strange Betting

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pineforest:
Hey guys,
Here is something I've seen more and more lately and I would like your opinions.  Players stating bets, but putting out more chips than the stated bet.

example - Tournament, blinds are 100-200.  Player A states his bet as raise to 525 and puts out a 1000 chip and a 25 chip.  Everyone folds to the BB who takes his BB 200 back and throws in a 1000 chip and a 25 chip and says nothing.  The dealer then gives him 500 change the BB stops the dealer and says I raised 500.  The dealer says you did not state your raise so it is just a call. the player says, but I threw in 2 chips to constitute a raise. the floor was then called and the floor also said it was a call. (now the dealer did a poor job explaining the action to the floor and I feel the floor call was wrong and it should have been ruled a raise, I also feel the floor would have got the call right had the dealer done a better job explaining the action( as this was at the wsop 1pm daily tournament)

I see these kind of raises more and more and I think something should be done.  IMO the dealer shouldmake change right away or push back the 25 chip and state to the table that the bet is 525. We don't need to have extra chips in the betting area. Next thing players will be putting out 1, 1000 chip and 2, 100 chips as a 700 bet.

Has anyone else seen this???

I can't wait to hear you replies,

Nick C:
pineforest,
 
 Verbal bets are binding. Therefore when a player announces an amount and pushes a different amount, they are liable to the spoken amount. You are correct about the dealer. The dealer should have called the bet as 525 and given 500 back to Player A. When a good dealer controls the game and calls the action properly, most of these problems don't exist. The fact that only two players remain in the hand, and the way the dealer handled the incident, I would have no problem allowing that raise. I have to agree with all that you say. The dealer could have easily made things much more clear. Giving change back is okay but, a quick verbal announcement from the dealer should have clarified the bet and then the 1000 and the 25 chips placed into the betting area by the big blind, (especially when he retracted his 200 BB) would have been accepted as a raise.

It would have been nice if the big blind said "raise," wouldn't it?  End of problem. Some day, a player might have to announce his raise, but until then, we will have to deal with these situations. The bad news is, we don't always make the right call.

That's how I see it.

MikeB:
Pine: I'm usually going to call this a raise. The guy tosses out a raise value of chips with no verbal, that's a raise. Just point to the chips and say "raise", if that's not what he intended, he'll be more careful next time, and the whole table will be too.... That said, IMO it's not inappropriate to ask the player for clarification if you have some reason to doubt (a gesture or something): "Sir do you intend a raise or call here?". But control and consistency is really important, so people know they have to be careful about pushing undeclared chip amounts forward, otherwise chaos can set in.

Nick C:
Mike,
 Players have an obligation to make sure that their actions are clear to all, whatever they do, fold, call, bet, or raise. I don't think that advising a dealer to ask a player what their intentions are; "Sir do you intend a raise or call here? That is not the answer. Why don't we come up with a rule that insists a player announce his raise. I know that's a tough one for some players........RAISE.  maybe they're afraid their voice will "crack" when they are bluffing!

Stuart Murray:
I have saw things like this, but only where card-rooms give a ridiculous amount of chips in the players starting stack such a 4x25, 4x100, 1x500, 4x1000 for a 5k tourney, but it does force the players to educate themsleves to the correct ettiquette and betting and raising procedures.

I would rule the 1000 and 25 as a raise as it does not fall within the mulltiple same denomination chips rule so therefore can not be taken as a call, even if there was some confusion, by the book it is a raise to 1025 total.  The player acted correctly with his silent raise, I often play quietly but to be honest I would use more chips to make the same raise (for example 2x500 and 1x25)

Regards
Stuart

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