Author Topic: Table talk  (Read 19530 times)

MaxH

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Table talk
« on: June 23, 2010, 03:28:46 PM »
Hi all,
Two players left in a hand. Player A pushes his stack and announces: 'Don't call I have the nuts!' and player B folds.
What action should the TD take?
Best,
Max

chet

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Re: Table talk
« Reply #1 on: June 23, 2010, 03:54:37 PM »
This players statement is a violation of TDA Rule #41 - No Disclosure, "Players are obligated to protect the other players in the tournament at all times.  Therefore, players, whether in a hand or not, may not:

1.  Disclose contents of live or folded hands,
2.  Advise or criticize play at any time,...

If this is the first instance, I would advise both players that talking about either hand is unacceptable and that any future instances will result in a penalty.

Hope this helps1

Stuart Murray

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Re: Table talk
« Reply #2 on: June 23, 2010, 04:21:44 PM »
agreed with chet,

Whilst he has not divulged his hand he is coaching or leading another player into a certain action.

I would certainly give the player a single missed hand penalty as a slap on the wrist if it is first offence, otherwise I would escalate to round penalties, but the hand will continue and the issue be dealt with after the hand is complete.

I have found myself rather than issuing warnings, giving more and more single hand penalties to encourage discipline amongst players, as warnings seem to have no or little effect, whilst a missed hand at least gives some kind of penalty without being unduly harsh to the player.

Best Regards
Stuart

MaxH

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Re: Table talk
« Reply #3 on: June 23, 2010, 10:49:02 PM »
Thanks gents.
Max

Nick C

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Re: Table talk
« Reply #4 on: June 24, 2010, 06:17:19 AM »
gentlemen,
 I think the key here is, two players left in the hand. To me, that is nothing more than table talk. There is no collusion because there are no other players in the hand. What happens when the game gets to head to head? You can't penalize a player by dealing him out, can you? In my opinion, the rules are different when only two players are involved. To me, it is very similar to the restriction on raises being waived when action is head to head in a limit game.

That's the way I see it.

MaxH

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Re: Table talk
« Reply #5 on: June 24, 2010, 09:15:53 AM »
Hi Nick,
The way I see it is it could be a form of soft collusion if calling the bet busted player B. To my mind, the threat of having the nuts is a little like showing one's cards.
Best,
« Last Edit: June 24, 2010, 09:17:16 AM by MaxH »
Max

Nick C

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Re: Table talk
« Reply #6 on: June 24, 2010, 11:25:42 AM »
MaxH
 
 Your original post gave no indication of any unusual betting prior to the head to head action. I find those actions difficult to have any bearing on the outcome of a hand. As long as no player is " caught in the middle" I don't see anything wrong with telling a player you have him beat. Verbal declarations when betting are binding, but verbal statements of what you are holding are not.

That's how I see it.

Stuart Murray

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Re: Table talk
« Reply #7 on: June 24, 2010, 04:22:06 PM »
At my tables I do draw a line between banter and table talk between players and those players trying to influence the outcome of a hand, Nick does have some valid points about it being heads-up however the above still applies for me, saying you've got the nuts could effectively be like exposing your cards - would you allow that heads-up?

An excellent thread covering this very subject is on the Hendon Mob Website, in a series called your the tournament director, with the likes of Matt Savage replying on situations and be found here:

http://www.thehendonmob.com/tournament_director/ive_got_aces_and_iam_allin.html

I definitely believe firmly whether heads-up or not that by stating you have the nuts you are trying to affect the action of that hand and therefore it is not in the best interests of the game, whereas questioning the other player with phraseology such as "You got a flush" "You got the ace, I think you have the ace" are more acceptable, I recently saw a situation where Gus Hansen viewed Huck Seeds hand whilst Huck was facing a bet, whilst it is a violation of the one player to a hand rule it did not damage the game as Gus was all-in.  That kind of situation is reverse information where the player is not giving information on the contents of their own hand to the other player, and IMO borderline acceptable, effectively telling someone to fold is not acceptable in my eyes however.

I had a situation where a beginner questioned another player as to their hand and they replied a high pair, the player called and the opponent turned over the nut flush, I let it go with a warning as although he was deceiving his opponent, he was still giving information I don't believe should be open - your hole cards are just that and IMO the should read themselves only ever at showdown, I have even saw myself when heads up in a situation where I flopped the nut full, and the river completed a four card broadway straight, with only the ace required, I bet into the player with speeches such as "I don't think you have the ace, Have you got the ace?" this type of table talk in my eyes is acceptable as I am not turning to the player and trying to influence his decision - I am misleading my opponent by my statement on his hand.

Stuart

Nick C

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Re: Table talk
« Reply #8 on: June 24, 2010, 05:12:45 PM »
Stuart,
 The consensus of the Hendon Mob was exactly what I said. Who said that you couldn't lie in poker? Head to head is different than talk in a multy handed pot. The most interesting issue that was not even mentioned on that link was the player calling the other player a punk. He might find himself lying on the floor before the hand is complete. That was worthy of a warning.
 I once played  in a house tournament where a $10 penalty was imposed on any player that spoke any words other than, I fold, or I'm out, or I bet $20 or any word that was not related to the hand in progress. I kid you not! That paid for our pizza and chicken wings.
 I will quote a ruling that the Seneca Nation enforces in their tournaments under PLAYER CONDUCT: Table talk must be kept to a minimun whenever there are 3 or more active players in a hand.
 Stuart, I think it's comical that you actually think that your statements are okay, but what the other player said was unacceptable.
Who talked more than Jamie Gold when he won the main event?......The answer......nobody.
 

MaxH

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Re: Table talk
« Reply #9 on: June 25, 2010, 12:33:29 AM »
I agree with Stuart as to where he draws the line between banter and table talk although there is more latitude allowed when players are heads-up. My opinion is that stating the value of your hand is much like exposing your cards and I certainly wouldn't allow that.
Best,
Max

AleaLeedsCardRoom

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Re: Table talk
« Reply #10 on: June 25, 2010, 08:42:39 PM »
I am assuming that this was in a tourney...
If so then I would rule either way depending on if thep layers had cashed yet or were on the bubble, or far away from it.  As the statements could cause either player to get knoced out or to avoid getting knocked out where the oppisit would have happened if nothing had been said, and depending on how close they are to the cash that could affect everyones money.


Just something to consider methinks:)

Lewis

higavin

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Re: Table talk
« Reply #11 on: June 29, 2010, 06:46:49 PM »
Of course the player was trying to influence the action of the other player, he wanted to win the hand. He also BET when he made the statement.

Was it the comment, "Don't call I've got the nuts." the reason the other player folded or because he didn't want to call the bet or maybe he missed his draw and would have folded anyway.

In the USA, table talk like this, heads up, is common.  I've been told it's uncommon in the UK and Europe, is that true?

Lying about your hand IS poker, it's part of the game.  If I had the nuts, I wouldn't advertise it, I would make a bet and silently wish the other player would raise.

Heads up, with teh other player facing a bet, the comment or some variation of it, is acceptible and very common.  With a third person in the hand, even if that person is all in, no comment would be acceptible.

pineforest

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Re: Table talk
« Reply #12 on: June 30, 2010, 01:08:35 AM »
i agree with stuwart.  i also believe it is collusion.  ifs like a husband and wife in the hand together.  honey fold so we both can cash higher

MaxH

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Re: Table talk
« Reply #13 on: June 30, 2010, 07:16:02 AM »
higavin,
What is allowable heads-up table talk is generally different in Europe.
As Stuart says, the line between banter and acceptable table talk is a fine one but if we are to allow comments such as 'I have the nuts' do we then allow 'I have two aces'? If we allow these what is the difference between that and allowing players to expose their cards? Is it because the verbal statements may not be true and are simply seen as a part of buffing?
I don't know why the player folder after the 'nuts' comment or if the other player was his pal and this was a form of collusion but I don't think it is fair in these cases to ask a TD to make a judgment based on what they believe to be the intention behind a player's action.
What I do know is that there were some miffed players because one of the two would have been out had the call been made and that would have put the remainder one place nearer the money.
Best,
Max

Nick C

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Re: Table talk
« Reply #14 on: June 30, 2010, 10:16:29 AM »
To all,
 
 Where are we going with this? Table talk, banter (according to Webster; 1. An exchange of light, playful remarks). To answer Max's question, "I have the nuts, do we then allow "I have two aces?" If we allow these what is the difference between that and allowing players to show their cards? In my opinion, the difference is; they could be lying with their statement. As far as a signal to a friend in a hand (collusion), there are far too many other ways, a wink, a raised eyebrow, or any pre-planned means of signaling that makes a lot more sense than telling a player what you have. I think the player that folds simply has the worst hand. This is just another rule that is seldom enforced in major tournaments, so why don't we let the "pro's" have their own house rules and the rest of us try to abide by the existing rules of the TDA. Maybe it can be an incentive for the everyday poker player. Example; When you reach the final table, or earn your first million playing in the WSOP then you can get away with the same rule infractions as Phil and Jamie and Chris and on and on.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2011, 09:33:24 AM by Nick C »