Calling a raise before the amount

[Guillaume Gleize]

Hello!

A > bets 10.000
B > says "raise"
C > says "call" (before any amount is announced by B)

1 > Does C must now call any amount announced by B (from 20.000 to many more)?
2 > Or does C can also forfeit a min raise of 20.000 if the amount is too big for him?
(knowing that C will anyway receive a penalty for speaking out of turn). 

TY in advance - GG

[Vincenzo Morabito]

Hello Guillaume!

As the rule says: "If Player A declares "bet" or "raise" and B calls before A's exact bet amount is known, the TD will rule the bet as best fits the situation including possibly obliging B to call any amount."

In my opinion, the possibility of losing any minimum raise could open up scenarios that should be properly regulated by a specific written rule.

I also think that we cannot properly speak of out-of-turn action, since this is a different specific case. There is no action in the declaration of the raise amount, that is, the action is already defined as a raise.

I believe that defending the strength of the verbal declaration is fundamental in a interpreting the spirit and the principles of all the regulation and the written rules as well. So in a very few cases I will fit the situation in a different way to obliging B to call any amount.

[Guillaume Gleize]

Hello Guillaume!

As the rule says: "If Player A declares "bet" or "raise" and B calls before A's exact bet amount is known, the TD will rule the bet as best fits the situation including possibly obliging B to call any amount."

In my opinion, the possibility of losing any minimum raise could open up scenarios that should be properly regulated by a specific written rule.

I also think that we cannot properly speak of out-of-turn action, since this is a different specific case. There is no action in the declaration of the raise amount, that is, the action is already defined as a raise.

I believe that defending the strength of the verbal declaration is fundamental in a interpreting the spirit and the principles of all the regulation and the written rules as well. So in a very few cases I will fit the situation in a different way to obliging B to call any amount.

TY very much for your answer Vincenzo.

To be honest my final conclusion was slightly different from yours because, for the moment, I will usually use the #2 solution and only in very few cases I will fit the situation to choose the #1 obliging B to call any amount. Plus for me C is OOT because the decision of B is NOT over (and so not clear).

But be sure that your answer is IMPORTANT for me, even if slightly opposed to mine. And I will count with it if some other TDs answer me the same way as you.

[Nick C]

Hello, Guillaume and Vincenzo

I understand that ignorance of the rule is no excuse, but there are times when common sense might be the wiser decision.
There are some players who might take advantage of a player with little experience.

The idea is to have every player act in turn and wait for the action in front of them to be completed!

That would be the perfect situation, Kind of like playing poker online. The online site will not allow these mistakes.

As floorpersons, we need to make decisions that will be most fair for all players involved.

Was the player a repeat offender? Was the raise clear to him before he said call?

I guess my decision would demand at least a minimum raise. I have never been in favor of allowing any player to gain a windfall of chips, from an unclear bet. It is not in the best interest of the game.

When I was teaching new poker dealers, I would insist that they always wait for the in turn player to complete his bet, or check, or fold before the next player acts. I know it is easier said than done, but that is what we are striving for.
To all players, betting or raising, make your intentions clear!

Wouldn't that be nice?

[Al1_FFPA]

For me, C move is OOT as B hasn't finished his play ("raise" with no amount can't be considered as a complete play).

So C should be given hand back "freely" (B final move will be "Raise X" so C is not engaged any more).
So no obligation to call (20000 or any other amount)

But C should also be penalized for playing OOT (and more penalized if he doesn't call a "standard" raise.