Author Topic: Mucked hand  (Read 12354 times)

MaxH

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 46
Mucked hand
« on: June 15, 2010, 04:41:18 AM »
Hi all,
Here was a situation at a tournament last night.
The player in the BB was short stacked and all-in but for less than the amount of the blind; three other players called creating a side-pot (all had chips left in their stacks). First two players who could have bet checked the flop and the last player to act bet. The first two players folded and the player who bet - forgetting the BB was still in - threw his cards in the muck. The TD, who was watching the action, correctly identified the two mucked cards and ruled that the hand was live as 'you can't muck an all-in hand' and (because his hand was better) awarded the entire pot to the player who had mucked. What say you?

« Last Edit: June 15, 2010, 04:44:16 AM by MaxH »
Max

Stuart Murray

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 645
Re: Mucked hand
« Reply #1 on: June 15, 2010, 04:49:57 AM »
Your TD was correct that an all-in hand cannot be mucked, however, depending on how well mucked the cards were I personally am reluctant to retrieve cards from the muck pile unless they have been folded as the result of mis-information as-per Robert's Rules of Poker.

If it was my tables, I would need some decent reason to hunt the muck for the hand, in likelihood I would award the main pot to the BB and the side-pot to the last player but that is not certain.  It is really down to how flexible the TD is to retrieving mucked hands, your TD retrieving the hand in that situation is not unreasonable.

Regards
Stuart

MaxH

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 46
Re: Mucked hand
« Reply #2 on: June 15, 2010, 05:19:42 AM »
Thanks for that, Stuart, but the hand that was retrieved was not all-in and, therefore, I cannot see why the 'cannot muck an all-in hand' rule applies. 
Hope I am making myself clear but I feel there is a case for awarding the BB the initial pot.
Best,
Max

Stuart Murray

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 645
Re: Mucked hand
« Reply #3 on: June 15, 2010, 05:28:36 AM »
no prob Max,

Yes I understand your argument, the hand must play against the all-in hand of the BB player and cannot be killed, rules such as this are to protect players from collusion, chip dumping and unethical conduct at the tables.

9.   Face Up
All cards will be turned face up once a player is all-in and all betting action is complete.

This does not apply only to the all-in hand but any hands that have reached a showdown against the all-in player.

Best Regards
Stuart

MaxH

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 46
Re: Mucked hand
« Reply #4 on: June 15, 2010, 05:39:55 AM »
Thanks again.
It was the clarification that this applies to any hands that have reached showdown against the all-in player that I was unsure of.
Best,
Max

Nick C

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 3358
    • http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=557;sa=forumProfile
Re: Mucked hand
« Reply #5 on: June 15, 2010, 07:22:51 AM »
Max and Stuart,

 This subject of retreiving cards from the muck has been discussed on other posts. I think that the rules are too vague. I don't like Rule #9. There are too many contradictions regarding players that are all-in, especially at the showdown. I do not want to confuse anyone on this but, the way the rules are written, a floorperson can make just about any ruling they want. Who shows their hand first? Lets see if you can follow the rules for this years World Series of Poker. I will send you the exact quotes that pertain to this situation. There are three diferent sets of rules; one for the dealers, one for cash games and one for tournaments. I will send them shortly. I have a tough time going into the muck, except for some reasons mentioned by Stuart. A good dealer will stop a player's cards from ever hitting the muck if they are paying attention to the game. Example; "Sir, there is another player in the hand," (while pushing the cards back to the player). This is why I don't like rule #9. The side pot must be contested and finalized before the all-in player shows his hand.

There is more to come.
Nick C


Nick C

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 3358
    • http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=557;sa=forumProfile
Re: Mucked hand
« Reply #6 on: June 15, 2010, 07:27:14 AM »
Max and Stuart,

  Thought I would pass this along:



Robert's Rules ...Version 11........    SHOWDOWN  # 8.)  If everyone checks (or is all in) on the final betting round, the player who acted first is the first to show the hand. If there is wagering on the final betting round, the last player to take aggressive action by a bet or a raise is the first to show the hand. In order to speed up the game, a player holding a probable winner is encouraged to show the hand without delay. If there are one or more side pots (because someone is all in), players are asked to aid in determining the pot winner by not showing their cards until a pot they are in is being settled. A player may opt to throw his hand away after all the betting for the deal is over, rather than compete to win the pot. However, the other players do not lose the right to request the hand be shown if he does so.

I will follow with the WSOP rules

Nick C

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 3358
    • http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=557;sa=forumProfile
Re: Mucked hand
« Reply #7 on: June 15, 2010, 07:28:42 AM »
The World Series of Poker Dealer Reference Guide 2010



SHOWDOWN:

If no players respond by revealing their cards when the dealer announces Showdown, the last aggressive bettor is required to show his hand first.





2010 WORLD SERIES OF POKER OFFICIAL TOURNAMENT RULES



Section VI- POKER RULES #63  At the end of the last round of betting , the player who made the last aggressive betting action in that betting round must show first. If there was no bet during the final round, the player to the left of the button shows first, and so on in clockwise direction. In stud games the player with the high board must show first. In razz, the lowest board shows first. At Showdown, any player at the table may request to see a folded hand from any player who has called all bets on the last round of betting. If a player with the last aggressive action on the last round jof betting refuses to show their hand and intentionally mucks his or her hand, the player in violation will receive a penalty, in accordance with rule #92.





2010 WORLD SERIES OF POKER OFFICIAL LIVE ACTION RULES



THE SHOWDOWN:    141.   If everyone checks on the final betting round, the player who acted first is the first to show the hand. If there is wagering on the final betting round, the last player to take aggressive action by a bet or a raise is the first to show the hand. In order to speed up the game, the last player to act or a player holding a probable winner is encouraged to show the hand without delay. If there is a side pot, players involved in the side pot should show their hands before anyone who is all in for only the main pot. In a No Limit poker game if betting has ended on a round prior to the river, the player who pushed all-in is responsible for turning their hand over first.



Nick C

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 3358
    • http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=557;sa=forumProfile
Re: Mucked hand
« Reply #8 on: June 15, 2010, 07:36:23 AM »
If that isn't confusing then I don't know what is......As far as rule #9, this is what I would like to see.
 
 

TDA RULE  #9.    FACE UP

 

9.1    When any player goes all in, and only one player calls, both hands will be placed face-up on the table. .

 

9.2    When any player goes all in, and multiple players create a side pot, the following rules apply; all side pot winners must be determined before any all-in hand is shown. However, the all-in player still has an obligation to show their hand, even when it is not a winning hand.

 

I'd like to know what others think of these changes.

Nick C

MikeB

  • Administrator
  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • *****
  • Posts: 1156
Re: Mucked hand
« Reply #9 on: June 15, 2010, 02:48:14 PM »
Just to add to the WSOP rules, I can't seem to get the 2010 PDF to open at this link:
http://www.wsop.com/pdfs/2010/2010-WSOP-Rules.pdf

However, from the 2008 WSOP Rule set we have:
Section VI, Poker Rules, # 54:
54. All cards will be turned face up once a player is all in and all action is complete. If a player accidentally folds/mucks their hand before cards are turned up, the Tournament Staff reserves the right to retrieve the folded/mucked cards if the cards are clearly identifiable
**************

Some other food for thought on this topic: It's important to remember that a couple reasons for turning up cards when an all-in is involved include: 1) To eliminate chip dumping to a friend on the brink; and 2) When there's a player all-in, more than just the pot is at stake, the player's survival in the tourney is also on the line so we want to make extra-sure the right hand wins.

Nick C

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 3358
    • http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=557;sa=forumProfile
Re: Mucked hand
« Reply #10 on: June 15, 2010, 03:50:37 PM »
Mike,

 I want to know how you feel about what I've added to rule #9. I don't understand how that has anything to do with chip dumping when players attempt to steal pots with the worst hands imaginable, to me, that proves nothing. Can you see the differing rules that  the WSOP have in writing?  One rule clearly states; If there is a side pot, players involved in the side pots should show their hands before anyone who is all in for only the main pot. Does that not contradict TDA rule #9. Even the rules for dealers are unclear. Maybe someone out there can better explain the last line of the WSOP rule.
In a No Limit poker game if betting has ended on a round prior to the river, the player who pushed all-in is responsible for turning their hand over first. ??????????

Too confusing for me.
Nick C