Author Topic: Forward motion, spilling out chips and straddle  (Read 5437 times)

W0lfster

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Forward motion, spilling out chips and straddle
« on: August 15, 2023, 01:52:28 AM »
Hello,

Whilst playing at my local pub, I came across a player who put in a bet without saying anything in one forward motion with chips in hand spilling each chip one by one onto the felt and then proceeding to take one of those chips in his hand back to his stack. Nothing was said and to be honest it isnít a casino or the World Series however by the book, would this have been allowed?

Also when it comes to straddling, the general consensus is that it is treated as a third blind. If we go by that knowledge say blinds are $1/2 and the UTG straddles for 4, and the UTG +1 restraddles to 8, would the minimum raise for the next player be to 16? This is for no limit. If nobody raises, does the restraddler get to check? When the flop comes is the minimum bet back to $2 on a straddled hand?

Dave Miller

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Re: Forward motion, spilling out chips and straddle
« Reply #1 on: August 15, 2023, 12:34:17 PM »
I'm not sure if it's the same thing, but in my pub league, we do allow a "dribble" bet. I.E. Stack in hand, chips are dropped one at a time, provided that they are dropped at a reasonably quick rate. If there is any sort of extra delay between chips, the bet stops before that last chip. Similarly, if the hand makes any sort of backwards motion, no more chips.


Straddles are additional blinds. Yeah, in a 1/2 game, if someone makes a min-raise to 4, the next min-reraise is 6. However, a straddle of 4 makes the min-raise 8 and a min-reraise to 12.

Similarly, a double straddle to 8 makes a min-raise 16 and a min-reraise 24.

And, yeah, post flop the minimum is back to the regular big blind amount.

Of course min-raises and min-bets rarely happen, but it's good to know the rules.


Yes, the straddler can check if there were no raises. It's like another blind - he has the option to raise, but not required to do so.
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W0lfster

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Re: Forward motion, spilling out chips and straddle
« Reply #2 on: August 15, 2023, 01:02:00 PM »
Hello Dave,

Thanks for your reply.

I am of the impression then that a dribble bet is open to interpretation and maybe needs addressing at the next TDA summit because one could argue it could be open to collusion. Like I thought as it stands and from what youíve said itís a bit of a grey area if no verbal declaration was said prior to spilling the chips.

In terms of the reraise amounts, I am talking about no limit and I know there are some rules which are different to limit when it comes to raise amounts. Where I stand that 16 example the min raise would be to 32 as I understand it or I could be wrong?! Any thoughts?

Dave Miller

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Re: Forward motion, spilling out chips and straddle
« Reply #3 on: August 15, 2023, 02:45:45 PM »
I agree that the dribble bet is open to interpretation and probably should be addressed at the next TDA meeting.


I’ve never seen a straddle in a limit game. I would assume that they are limited to the amount of a normal preflop raise, but giving person the right to re-raise.

Straddles are usually* double. Multiple straddles just keep doubling. There’s a video out there of a high stakes 5/10 game where it was straddled five times, all the way up to $320.

No matter how many straddles, the first raise is always the amount of the last straddle, essentially another double. But the min-reraise is always the amount of the raise, not doubled again.

So in that high stakes game, a min-raise is another $320 to take it up to $640. Another min-raise of $320 will take it up to $960. Post flop, the minimum bet would be back to $10.

*Usually: I forget where, but I once played a 1/2 game where a straddle was $5. But that was more to reduce the requirement for change, and not slow down the game.

Also note that many jurisdictions limit the number of straddles. Some don’t allow them at all.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2023, 02:51:46 PM by Dave Miller »
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Nick C

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Re: Forward motion, spilling out chips and straddle
« Reply #4 on: August 15, 2023, 03:42:44 PM »
I think the important thing to remember is: Straddles are blind so if multiple players are allowed to straddle, I believe the straddles keep doubling.

When we speak of raises, that's where it changes.

W0lfster

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Re: Forward motion, spilling out chips and straddle
« Reply #5 on: August 16, 2023, 04:16:53 AM »
Thanks for your replies Dave and Nick,

Dave, I am with you on everything except the minimum raise requirement after the last straddle. The way you have worded it sounds as if the straddle is more a blind raise rather than an additional blind. I would have thought it would be doubled such as: straddle 8 and min raise would be 16 since we are treating the straddle as like another Big Blind. I funnily enough looked at this in another forum and the people say different things and cannot seem to agree completely on this. Maybe it differs cardroom to cardroom?!

Nick yes exactly they do double and in terms of raises, that is what Iím puzzled over.

Dave Miller

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Re: Forward motion, spilling out chips and straddle
« Reply #6 on: August 16, 2023, 11:28:01 AM »
Maybe I worded it badly.

Except for the rare Ďroundedí straddle like my 1/2 to 5 example, straddles are always double.
Re-straddle? Double again.
Re-straddle again? Double again, AGAIN.
Etc.

Thatís how that 5/10 game got to 320. 10, 20, 40, 80, 160, 320!

Whatever the last straddle is, a minimum raise is another double. A min re-raise is the amount of the call plus the amount of the raise - like normal. It just so happens that if itís a min raise followed by a min re-raise, itís triple the last straddle. But that rarely happens.
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown.
But how much does it cost to knock on wood?

W0lfster

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Re: Forward motion, spilling out chips and straddle
« Reply #7 on: August 16, 2023, 12:24:57 PM »
Hi Dave,

Thanks for your reply,

I get the restraddle is always double Iím just at a loss as to why the minimum raise after the last straddle is always double the penultimate straddle rather than the previous straddle. For example, if the straddle is 10 and the next person restraddles for 20 and the next person then restraddles for 40 and no more straddles happen, where I come from is the minimum raise would be double the 40 which would be 80 no? I donít understand why it would be 20 more for 60 if we are treating the straddles as live and essentially just another big blind rather than a blind raise where the 60 would make sense.

I hope that makes sense?!

Dave Miller

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Re: Forward motion, spilling out chips and straddle
« Reply #8 on: August 16, 2023, 02:19:14 PM »
I think youíre confusing the last straddle with the first min raise.

Youíre right. Once it gets straddled up to 40, a min raise is to 80. Mind you thatís also the amount of the next straddle, if there were one. But there wasnít. Itís a raise of 40 so a min reraise is another 40, for a total of 120.

Hope that clears it up.
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown.
But how much does it cost to knock on wood?

W0lfster

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Re: Forward motion, spilling out chips and straddle
« Reply #9 on: August 17, 2023, 12:26:42 AM »
Hi Dave,

That makes sense, thank you 😊

Boris

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Re: Forward motion, spilling out chips and straddle
« Reply #10 on: September 30, 2023, 03:03:04 AM »
To OP
IMO dropping a bet one chip at a time should be considered as a string bet. If you don't know how many chips will drop you can't allow a valid raise here.
If the player retains some chips in his hand, the hand can be considered as part of the player stack which allow to rule as a string bet.