Author Topic: The usual suspect cases  (Read 12818 times)

Guillaume Gleize

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The usual suspect cases
« on: February 09, 2023, 06:39:26 AM »
Hello,
Your advices about those 2 hot cases please:

THE HAND UNVEILED
• Player A goes all-in
• Player B (who has more chips) thinks while revealing his hand in front of him
• Player A (believing a fold) reveals his hand (a pure bluff) and pretend to win the pot
• Player B (seeing the bluff and defeating it) announces that he calls and claims to win as well
> Your decision?

THE WRONG AMOUNT
• Player A goes all-in pre-flop
• Player B asks for the amount of the all-in bet
• Player A announces 35,000 (the dealer has no time to react)
• Player B (with 60,000) announces that he calls the all-in bet
• The cards are revealed but before anything else the dealer realizes that player A had 55,000
> Your decision?

Thanks in advance - GG
« Last Edit: February 09, 2023, 06:41:01 AM by Guillaume Gleize »

BillM16

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Re: The usual suspect cases
« Reply #1 on: February 09, 2023, 08:54:49 AM »
Hello Guillaume,

THE HAND UNVEILDED

See Rule #68: Exposing cards with action pending, including the current player when last to act, may result in a penalty but not a dead hand. 

Also, there are several rules regarding tabled cards, folded cards, and verbal and non-verbal actions.  The gist of which support the notion that while Player B may have acted improperly, the hand is still alive.  Player A is not innocent either.  IMHO, Player B wins.

THE WRONG AMOUNT

See Rule 49: Accepted Action
Poker is a game of alert, continuous observation. It is the caller’s responsibility to determine the correct amount of an opponent’s bet before calling, regardless of what is stated by others. If a caller requests a count but receives incorrect information from a dealer or player, then pushes out that amount or declares call, the caller has accepted the full correct action and is subject to the correct wager or all-in amount.

IMHO, Player B called.

Guillaume Gleize

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Re: The usual suspect cases
« Reply #2 on: February 09, 2023, 10:08:38 AM »
Hello Bill,
TY for your answers!

To be honest, I think I knew those rules but wanted to know if those horrible situations would be sometimes "corrected" by a TD?
1) Player B provoking a huge killing error doing himself a guilty and forbidden move ... !?
2) Player A provoking a huge killing error doing himself a guilty and false announcement ... !?

I would normally apply the rules like you.
But to dissuade the repetition of those culpable moves (sometimes voluntary in order to deceive the opponent) - And especially in cases of serious consequences for the opponent (as here the loss of all the chips): I sometimes take deterrent decisions to protect victims and maintain the integrity of my tournaments:
1) Player B has folded!
2) Player B wins the full amount if he wins but only loses the announced amount if he loses!

And notice that here I prefer to inflict a LOSS OF PROFIT to the players having made the first error rather than a DEAD LOSS to the players victims of these errors!
My humble opinion - That you all can change - GG
« Last Edit: February 09, 2023, 10:24:54 AM by Guillaume Gleize »

Boris

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Re: The usual suspect cases
« Reply #3 on: February 09, 2023, 10:43:50 AM »
Case 1

Revealing a hand while facing heads up action is a common way to fold. Also, Player B should be aware of revealing their hand is illegal, by doing this their are looking for a passive information from other players to get an edge. This technically breaks One Player One Hand rule.
Depending of the known history of tricky moves from Player B on the tournament, I might consider Player B as folding through forward motion.
But yes, sticking strictly to the rules results in Player B's hand being live.

In any case, Player B gets one orbit penalty


Case 2
I am with Bill on this one, for the exact same reasons.

Seixas

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Re: The usual suspect cases
« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2023, 01:07:00 PM »
Player B has to be santioned in my opinion however the hand is not dead, player A should pay more attention.

You may warn or sanction the player who wrongfully announced the 35k if you think there's an ill intention but player B called, and the chips determine the amount, not a verbal declaration, player B should have asked for the dealer to count the bet.



Hello,
Your advices about those 2 hot cases please:

THE HAND UNVEILED
• Player A goes all-in
• Player B (who has more chips) thinks while revealing his hand in front of him
• Player A (believing a fold) reveals his hand (a pure bluff) and pretend to win the pot
• Player B (seeing the bluff and defeating it) announces that he calls and claims to win as well
> Your decision?

THE WRONG AMOUNT
• Player A goes all-in pre-flop
• Player B asks for the amount of the all-in bet
• Player A announces 35,000 (the dealer has no time to react)
• Player B (with 60,000) announces that he calls the all-in bet
• The cards are revealed but before anything else the dealer realizes that player A had 55,000
> Your decision?

Thanks in advance - GG

Guillaume Gleize

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Re: The usual suspect cases
« Reply #5 on: February 18, 2023, 04:37:54 AM »
OKTY now:

- In the first case imagine that player B had put the cards faces up IN THE MIDDLE OF THE TABLE?
- In the first case imagine that player B had THROWN the cards faces up IN THE MIDDLE OF THE TABLE?

What is the limit of this act (because players can now use it to try to make the opponent show or muck)?

- In the second case imagine THERE WAS NO DEALER (self dealing tournament)? (So player A can use this "error" at any time)?
- In the second case imagine THE ERROR IS MADE BY A PROFESSIONAL DEALER? (So the player is killed by a professional dealer)?

TY in advance - GG

« Last Edit: February 18, 2023, 04:39:01 AM by Guillaume Gleize »

Nick C

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Re: The usual suspect cases
« Reply #6 on: March 05, 2023, 10:55:45 PM »
Hello, my friend.

If I were dealing and a player bets and then turns his cards up before the other player calls. I would tell him that the other player has a live hand and has not called your bet! If the other player calls him and beats him...it is his pot! In the case you described, player A is at fault for showing his hand with action still pending.
I agree that Player B should be awarded the pot, however, he must first call the bet!

Steff0111

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Re: The usual suspect cases
« Reply #7 on: March 07, 2023, 03:44:34 AM »
1)
Player B wins and get an orbit.

2)
Player B called the full amount.