Author Topic: Oversized & multiple chips in addition  (Read 8879 times)

Guillaume Gleize

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Oversized & multiple chips in addition
« on: June 02, 2010, 04:15:13 AM »
Hello,

Simple case but with different rules in Europe:

Player A at small blind (blinds 25-50)
All the players before him fold
Player A (with no change) throws (in silence) a single 500 chip near is 25 SB ...

- Do we consider the 25 SB as not an action from player A? (because it was a forced blind bet) ... so we apply the "oversized chip" rule #32 and consider it a CALL?
- Do we count the 25 SB chip plus the 500 chip as "multiple chips" rule #33?  So because we can't remove ANY chip and be UNDER a call ... we would apply the rule #31 and it will be a RAISE of total 525!

What about in the same kind (blinds 25-50):

Player A (in middle position) calls at 50
Player B (at the button) raises at 150
Everybody fold and turn to act is back to Player A
Player A (with no more 25 neither 100 change) throws (in silence) a single 500 chip (near is two 25 chips "call" chips) ...
- "oversized rule" rule #32? (so it's a call at 150)!
- "multiple chips" rule #33? (so it's a raise at 550)!

PS: The courage in this forum is not to be afraid of looking stupid with your own questions ... hope you will not juge me that way!

 ;)

 



Stuart Murray

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Re: Oversized & multiple chips in addition
« Reply #1 on: June 02, 2010, 04:57:54 AM »
Guillaume,

Don't feel stupid, very good question.

IMO and interpretation both scenarios are deemed a call, as the single chip is a singular act of placing said chip in the pot, the chips which are already in as blinds or calls are already deemed to be in the pot so do not count to form multiple chips.

Will be interesting to see if Nick and Chet agree with my interpretation!

Stu

Nick C

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Re: Oversized & multiple chips in addition
« Reply #2 on: June 02, 2010, 06:13:10 AM »
I agree with Stuart 100%. This is what the single oversized chip rule is for. I will say that most players will remove the other chips so their bet (a call) is not mistaken for a raise. If they wanted to raise, then they will learn a new lesson, they must announce a raise before the oversized chip hits the table.

Good question.
Nick C

Guillaume Gleize

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Re: Oversized & multiple chips in addition
« Reply #3 on: June 02, 2010, 08:16:31 AM »
Thanks so much!

Let's advance together!

 8)

GG

chet

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Re: Oversized & multiple chips in addition
« Reply #4 on: June 02, 2010, 05:03:48 PM »
I have been out of town guys, sorry I did not get back earlier.

I believe that in both instances, I would be inclined to rule this type of action a call, the first time it happened, with this player.  I would also instruct the player that he/she MUST verbally state their intention when they are putting more chips in the pot than are needed.  Failure to do so in the future, MAY be considered a raise.

The point being is that you want the player to remove any ambiguity about the action.

Hope this helps

Martin L. Waller

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Re: Oversized & multiple chips in addition
« Reply #5 on: June 07, 2010, 12:35:51 PM »
OK let me stink up the water a bit.

The dealer isnít concerned with what chips are in a playerís stack.
That would be like saying if he has 25s or 100s and he tosses a 500 it would be a raise but if he didnít have smaller chips it would be a call.
You canít have one rule both ways.

If the player has a 25 small blind and adds a 100 without comment or retrieving the 25 it should be a raise. If the dealer announces raise and the player corrects him prior to additional action the player can clarify his intent.

Same with the second example, if he pulls the 50 back it is a call if he leaves itís a raise.

Good games to you,
Martin


Nick C

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Re: Oversized & multiple chips in addition
« Reply #6 on: June 07, 2010, 03:02:23 PM »
Martin and Chet

  You are right about the dealer not being concerned with the chips that a player has in their stack, it is irrelevent. As far as your next statement; the player on the small blind of $25 throws in a $100 without saying anything, I have to disagree. It can only be a call. Once you let the player know that they are required to announce a raise, they should know better next time. Regular players are usually more familiar with those rules, but some new players are reluctant to reach in and take out their change.
  Chet, I agree that a warning might be a good way to let the player know the proper procedures, but the rules clearly state that an oversized chip, without the declaration of a raise, is only a call. I don't agree that it could be interpreted as a raise in the future. Players do have a responsibility to the dealer and the players at the table to clarify their bets.

That's the way I see it.
Nick C


Martin L. Waller

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Re: Oversized & multiple chips in addition
« Reply #7 on: June 08, 2010, 09:13:04 AM »
Nick,

Ok, we need to talk about this.

ďAnytime when facing a bet (or blind), placing a single oversized chip in the pot is a call if a raise is not first verbally declared.Ē

In this case a 25 chip was on the board and the player added 500 therefore it is a raise because there are two chips of different denominations. To make it a call the player must remove the 25 chip and replace it with the 500. Then it falls under the oversize chip.

I know this is inconvenient for the player and he will have to put his beer down but thatís his responsibility. 

This is the only way to have the chips speak. Multiple chips of different denominations are raises and single chips are calls.
 
Good games to you,
Martin

« Last Edit: June 08, 2010, 09:14:42 AM by Martin L. Waller »

Nick C

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Re: Oversized & multiple chips in addition
« Reply #8 on: June 08, 2010, 09:46:16 AM »
Martin,
 I looked through Roberts Rules and I really couldn't find that same situation. I did however, find this in the International Poker Rules;

RULE 65  OVERSIZED CHIP
65-1.  To make a raise with a single "oversized chip," a verbal "declaration of action" must be made BEFORE the chip hits the table surface.
             a) PRE-FLOP or with any existing call amount (blinds), if a player uses a single "oversized chip" without verbally declaring a "raise," it will only be considered a "call."

Nick C

Stuart Murray

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Re: Oversized & multiple chips in addition
« Reply #9 on: June 08, 2010, 09:52:07 AM »
I must say I'm with Nick on this one, It is my understanding that the chips that are already in are part of the pot, some dealers are trained to sweep those chips straight away others are trained to leave them as is, so therefore, my interpretation and implementation of this item is that a single chip when it comes back round to you is a call.

I personally train to sweep the blinds and antes into the middle before the pre-flop round starts so the players would therefore be unable to remove the 25 chip for example, however under your interpretation you must have your dealers leave blinds in situ.

This therefore comes down to a discussion to define what the pot is and it can be two things:

A) All blinds and antes and call portions which have been placed forward
B) only completed betting for that round forms the pot, therefore blinds will not be part of the pot until the betting round is complete.

I say A

Interesting,
look forwward to views to each argument coming forward.

Stuart

AleaLeedsCardRoom

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Re: Oversized & multiple chips in addition
« Reply #10 on: June 08, 2010, 11:11:06 AM »
I agree with Stuart and Nick on this one aswell, if the blinds are 25/50 the small blind is required to put in 25 to call, f e puts an oversized chip in without anouncing raise, the reguardless of any chips he has already put in it is a call.

Martin L. Waller

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Re: Oversized & multiple chips in addition
« Reply #11 on: June 08, 2010, 10:20:15 PM »
Ok, everyone, I concede, you win, and Iíll change.
It made for a good conversation.
Martin