Author Topic: Questions about raise amounts.  (Read 869 times)

Nick C

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 3310
    • http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=557;sa=forumProfile
Questions about raise amounts.
« on: July 25, 2022, 03:04:09 AM »
Raise rules have always created confusion to bet amounts. I have always questioned the following rule;
 43:  Raise Amounts

A: A raise must be at least equal to the largest prior full bet or raise of the current betting round. A player who raises 50% or more of the largest prior bet but less than a minimum raise must make a full minimum raise. If less than 50% it is a call unless “raise” is first declared or the player is all-in (Rule 45-B). Declaring an amount or pushing out the same amount of chips is treated the same (Rule 40-C). Ex: NLHE, opening bet is 1000, verbally declaring “Fourteen hundred” or silently pushing out 1400 in chips are both calls unless raise is first declared. See Illustration Addendum.

What I really like about TDA #45....EX-1 Player A opens for 400 B raises to 1100 total (a 700 raise)
I could never understand why the TDA considers an unintended raise amount. Back in the day...if player A bet 400, Player B would say "raise 700 more, or make it 1100. By today's TDA rules...if Player B says Raise 1100 more, or Raise 1100...that is his total bet. The intended amount was 1500.

Dave Miller

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 394
  • Lead dealer / rules guru for World Free Poker
    • Dave MIller Gaming
Re: Questions about raise amounts.
« Reply #1 on: July 25, 2022, 08:22:04 AM »
…if Player B says Raise 1100 more, or Raise 1100...that is his total bet. The intended amount was 1500.
Um, your two examples are NOT the same. In the first example, “more” is very important. That’s 1500 total. The second example is 1100 total.

It it’s not our job to try to figure out what a player intended. That’s why the TDA rules are so comprehensive and complex.


Quote from: TDA Rule 43B
Without other clarifying information, declaring raise and an amount is the total bet. Ex: A opens for 2000, B declares “Raise, eight thousand.” The total bet is 8000.
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown.
But how much does it cost to knock on wood?

Nick C

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 3310
    • http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=557;sa=forumProfile
Re: Questions about raise amounts.
« Reply #2 on: July 26, 2022, 06:50:18 AM »
Hi, Dave

In the example when I said: "raise 1100 more" The intent is to increase the 400 to 1500...correct? However, that is not what the ruling indicates. I would have to say: Raise 1500...the word "more" is not even considered with the current rule.

In my opinion, it just complicates verbal raises.

Dave Miller

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 394
  • Lead dealer / rules guru for World Free Poker
    • Dave MIller Gaming
Re: Questions about raise amounts.
« Reply #3 on: July 26, 2022, 12:34:35 PM »
I could have sworn that I had seen in the rules that 'more' is an acceptable modifying term.

Therefore, if the bet is 400, saying "Raise, 1100 more" means "Raise 1500". Ditto for "Raise of 1100". Frankly, I think allowing these modifiers makes it LESS confusing, while merely saying "Raise 1500" can easily be interpreted two ways: For a total of 1500 or a total of 1900.

But now that I couldn’t find that rule, I don’t know. 🤔


For the record, I've had players argue that "Raise 1500" is different from "Raise <pause> 1500" in that the former means a total of 1900 while the latter is a total of 1500. 😵‍💫
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown.
But how much does it cost to knock on wood?

Nick C

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 3310
    • http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=557;sa=forumProfile
Re: Questions about raise amounts.
« Reply #4 on: July 26, 2022, 07:56:57 PM »
Dave

You have just confirmed my argument. The TDA does not agree with, or allow saying "raise,1100 more." That statement following a 400 bet would be ruled a total of 1100...not the intended 1500.


Nick C

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 3310
    • http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=557;sa=forumProfile
Re: Questions about raise amounts.
« Reply #5 on: August 15, 2022, 05:00:54 AM »
Dave

I suggest we ask someone from the Board of Directors to clarify.

The rule is confusing

Adam bets 400...Bobby says, "raise 1100" or even "raise 1100 more" The TDA ruling allows the total bet to be 1100...NOT THE INTENDED AMOUNT OF 1500

BROOKS

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 97
Re: Questions about raise amounts.
« Reply #6 on: September 04, 2022, 09:16:33 AM »
Nick you are incorrect with your last statement, TDA rules differentiate between raise 1100, and raise 1100 more.

If the bet is 400 and someone says "raise 1100" they are raising TO 1100
If they say "raise 1100 more" they are raising to 1500

Rule 43:
B: Without other clarifying information, declaring raise and an amount is the total bet. Ex: A opens for 2000, B declares “Raise, eight thousand.” The total bet is 8000.


The important part is where it says "without other clarifying information...."
In this case, there was other information. They said raise 1100 MORE.
This rule simply says, if ALL they says is "raise" and then a number, it is always TO that number.

Nick C

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 3310
    • http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=557;sa=forumProfile
Re: Questions about raise amounts.
« Reply #7 on: September 13, 2022, 05:25:26 AM »
Brooks...I appreciate your response, but that is not the way I interpret the rule. I hope you are correct. I guess none of the board wants to comment.

Dave Miller

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 394
  • Lead dealer / rules guru for World Free Poker
    • Dave MIller Gaming
Re: Questions about raise amounts.
« Reply #8 on: September 13, 2022, 12:17:11 PM »
Not to add a monkey wrench, or stir the pot, but…

Last night I happened to be watching on YouTube a series of clips of several hands that involved Phil Helmuth on the Big Game. That was the show that had 5 pros against a novice that is given $100K to play. (He keeps any profit at the end of 150 hands.)

On several of the hands, Phil announced a raise in the format of "Raise. $___."

Each time, the commentators then specified an amount which was the call PLUS the raise. And each time, that total was what Phil bet.

One time, Phil announced "Raise," put in the chips to call, then announced the amount of the raise, saying nothing other than the number. Again, this was the raise, not the total.

In my mind, this raise where he put in the calling chips first, clearly demonstrated that it makes sense that the number announced afterwards would be the raise not the total. And if that's the case, it also makes sense that anytime a raise is announced, without using the modifier "total" might default to mean "more."

OK, this show was several years old, so maybe the rules changed. Also, it was a cash game.

Sigh. I’m so confused……
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown.
But how much does it cost to knock on wood?

Nick C

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 3310
    • http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=557;sa=forumProfile
Re: Questions about raise amounts.
« Reply #9 on: September 16, 2022, 01:36:30 AM »
Dave
This is why I brought this subject up...it is confusing. The confusion is created by the rule. What you just described is the way it used to be. Simple!

Nick C

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 3310
    • http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=557;sa=forumProfile
Re: Questions about raise amounts.
« Reply #10 on: September 26, 2022, 08:52:34 PM »
This is the latest TDA rule:
B: Without other clarifying information, declaring raise and an amount is the total bet. Ex: A opens for 2000, B declares “Raise, eight thousand.” The total bet is 8000.

I don't like it!