Author Topic: Clarification of silent UTG raise before the deal  (Read 432 times)

Dave Miller

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Clarification of silent UTG raise before the deal
« on: November 10, 2021, 03:16:09 PM »
As some of you know, I'm a dealer in a pub league. I'm also the league's rules guru, and I train the new dealers. We run short stack turbo type tournaments which each last less than an hour and a half, and do three per night.

While we try to follow the TDA rules, we also bend them a little, in an effort to keep it friendly. For example, when there's a bet of 225, and a player silently puts in 525 expecting change, we rule it a call but we'll tell them that in a casino, that would be a raise if they didn't say call first.

Some players like to have fun, particularly early on when risking a few chips doesn't cost much. Blind UTG raises before the deal are common, and that's where my question is heading.

So in our first tournament last night, one player did the blind UTG raise three times.

In our second tournament, a player who doesn't normally do the blind UTG raise, decided to do it. He silently put out a single 100 chip when the blinds were 25/50. The player who did it in the first tourney asked if that's a blind call or raise? I know he was just busting chops, but I truly didn't know how a casino would handle it. I mean, strict interpretation would say it was a single chip put in silently, so it's a call. But doing so while the cards are still being shuffled may have other meanings.

I mean, at cash games, I see the dealer often asking an UTG straddler if he's actually straddling. Technically, by asking, the dealer is allowing the player to revise his action.

I merely turned to the UTG player, raised my eyebrow to silently ask, and he jokingly said it was a raise. After the hand, I DID say all the stuff I just mentioned, and that I'd find out.

So here I am. trying to find out.


On a side note, often when there is such a blind UTG raise, someone will mention 'straddle' and I'll remind players that no casino allows straddles in tournaments, but do allow blind raises. Sometimes I have to go one step further and explain the difference.
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Dave Miller

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Re: Clarification of silent UTG raise before the deal
« Reply #1 on: November 17, 2021, 10:45:07 AM »
Wow. Nobody has an opinion?
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown.
But how much does it cost to knock on wood?

Nick C

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Re: Clarification of silent UTG raise before the deal
« Reply #2 on: November 18, 2021, 08:16:04 AM »
Hi, Dave...

 It's me again! I waited but nobody replied.
 I like what you said about your players liking to have fun. Your group is probably more familiar with each other than a casino game where players are vacationing and not regulars.

 You mentioned a couple of different situations. The first involved multiple chips, which would have been recognized as a raise.  "For example, when there's a bet of 225, and a player silently puts in 525 expecting change, we rule it a call but we'll tell them that in a casino, that would be a raise if they didn't say call first.". Your second example is a single chip rule:  He silently put out a single 100 chip when the blinds were 25/50.

 Let's take a look at your "more friendly" Pub league. I see nothing wrong with "bending" your house rules a little. The important thing is to keep your players happy and keep the league going.

 Let's look closer at TDA Rules. The rules are necessary to protect all players from financial loss. There are many players who would take an unfair advantage without rules.
Acting in turn might be the single most important bit of advice you can teach a new player. A good dealer will control the action and correct any unclear action before the next player reacts. In your first example, when the UTG player put out 525 on a 225 wager because it involves multiple chips, it would be considered a raise. I know that you understand this. I'm merely trying to break this down so your players will understand and accept your rule. If the UTG player insists he was only calling a warning should be enough. The next time it may not be intended the way he or she expected.

 Whenever I ran tournaments, not in a casino, I would announce a few basic rules before the tournament began. "To all players...Welcome to our tournament. Our dealers are here to assist you, if this is your first tournament, be sure to make your intentions clear before you act. Always act in turn, this includes checking, betting and folding. Announce your intent or ask the dealer before you act."
 You mentioned a player who did the blind raise three times. The blind raise is fine, but I would insist that he announce his raise so there is no confusion.

 The "single oversized chip rule" is only confusing when a player pushes the bet without clarification. It must be a call without saying raise prior to pushing out the bet. The next time they will know. That's it.
TDA Rule, and a rule that is in every set of poker rules. Players must make their intentions clear!
Good luck with your Pub Poker League. You must be doing it right because you've been at it for quite some time!
« Last Edit: November 18, 2021, 08:19:03 AM by Nick C »

Dave Miller

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Re: Clarification of silent UTG raise before the deal
« Reply #3 on: November 18, 2021, 11:29:51 AM »
Nick -

We're actually in agreement here.

For what it's worth, the 225 --> silent 525 thing is not an UTG issue. It's a situation where the players need to be educated that casinos would rule it a raise. I was just using that as an example of where we bend the rules to keep it friendly.


I'm more interested in what casinos do about the silent UTG oversize chip, specifically when it's during/before the deal. How is it typically handled? And is it typical to handle it differently for cash vs tournament?

I'm asking not so much because I would change any league procedures, (again, keep it friendly), but because some of my players, and I, are genuinely curious about how casinos handle it.

Thanks
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown.
But how much does it cost to knock on wood?

Nick C

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Re: Clarification of silent UTG raise before the deal
« Reply #4 on: November 19, 2021, 06:47:36 AM »
Dave,

 If I were dealing and before the downcards have been delivered the UTG player reacted with multiple chips I would either immediately announce "raise!" If the player responds with, "I only wanted to call." the correction might be considered if the UTG+1 has not responded. This is the perfect time to announce what the future rulings in this situation will be. Another way is to ask for clarification before continuing. Example: "What's that?"

I understand "bending" some rules for a more friendly atmosphere for your Pub League, however, I believe the 'single oversize chip rule" and the multiple chips rules should not vary from TDA or Casino Poker Rules.

MathieuP75

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Re: Clarification of silent UTG raise before the deal
« Reply #5 on: November 26, 2021, 01:21:45 AM »
In a casino, I would always rule it as a "blind call".
In this type of friendly game, a blind raise is fine by me.

Nick C

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Re: Clarification of silent UTG raise before the deal
« Reply #6 on: December 02, 2021, 07:04:04 PM »
MathieuP75

 I agree in a "friendly" pub game that the rules can be 'bent' however.

SB 25 BB 50 UTG 100 (four 25 count chips) before the initial deal is complete...It's a raise!

SB 25 BB 50 UTG 100 (single chip) Now what? Without a declaration of raise...it should only be a call.

Dave Miller

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Re: Clarification of silent UTG raise before the deal
« Reply #7 on: December 03, 2021, 01:07:40 PM »
You all keep missing one important aspect of my question.

In a tournament, if the UTG silently puts in a single oversize chip before the cards are dealt, what is the dealer supposed to do?

A) Announce "Call".
B) Push the chip back.
C) Ask the player what the chip is for.

If the dealer announces "call", can the player, who hasn't looked at his cards (or even gotten both yet!), state that he thought he was BB, pull it back and act in turn as normal?


The thing is, in cash games, I often see the dealer ask for a clarification from the player before announcing that it's a straddle. After all, the player could honestly be mistaken about his position. And even if the dealer simply announces the straddle, I've never seen a dealer disallow the player from bringing the chip back before checking their cards.

But what about during a tournament?
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown.
But how much does it cost to knock on wood?

Nick C

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Re: Clarification of silent UTG raise before the deal
« Reply #8 on: December 04, 2021, 06:38:41 AM »
I don't know of tournaments that allow straddles...and I believe I did address your question on my response #6 on this thread.