Clarification of silent UTG raise before the deal

[Dave Miller]

As some of you know, I'm a dealer in a pub league. I'm also the league's rules guru, and I train the new dealers. We run short stack turbo type tournaments which each last less than an hour and a half, and do three per night.

While we try to follow the TDA rules, we also bend them a little, in an effort to keep it friendly. For example, when there's a bet of 225, and a player silently puts in 525 expecting change, we rule it a call but we'll tell them that in a casino, that would be a raise if they didn't say call first.

Some players like to have fun, particularly early on when risking a few chips doesn't cost much. Blind UTG raises before the deal are common, and that's where my question is heading.

So in our first tournament last night, one player did the blind UTG raise three times.

In our second tournament, a player who doesn't normally do the blind UTG raise, decided to do it. He silently put out a single 100 chip when the blinds were 25/50. The player who did it in the first tourney asked if that's a blind call or raise? I know he was just busting chops, but I truly didn't know how a casino would handle it. I mean, strict interpretation would say it was a single chip put in silently, so it's a call. But doing so while the cards are still being shuffled may have other meanings.

I mean, at cash games, I see the dealer often asking an UTG straddler if he's actually straddling. Technically, by asking, the dealer is allowing the player to revise his action.

I merely turned to the UTG player, raised my eyebrow to silently ask, and he jokingly said it was a raise. After the hand, I DID say all the stuff I just mentioned, and that I'd find out.

So here I am. trying to find out.


On a side note, often when there is such a blind UTG raise, someone will mention 'straddle' and I'll remind players that no casino allows straddles in tournaments, but do allow blind raises. Sometimes I have to go one step further and explain the difference.

[Dave Miller]

Wow. Nobody has an opinion?

[Nick C]

Hi, Dave...

 It's me again! I waited but nobody replied.
 I like what you said about your players liking to have fun. Your group is probably more familiar with each other than a casino game where players are vacationing and not regulars.

 You mentioned a couple of different situations. The first involved multiple chips, which would have been recognized as a raise.  "For example, when there's a bet of 225, and a player silently puts in 525 expecting change, we rule it a call but we'll tell them that in a casino, that would be a raise if they didn't say call first.". Your second example is a single chip rule:  He silently put out a single 100 chip when the blinds were 25/50.

 Let's take a look at your "more friendly" Pub league. I see nothing wrong with "bending" your house rules a little. The important thing is to keep your players happy and keep the league going.

 Let's look closer at TDA Rules. The rules are necessary to protect all players from financial loss. There are many players who would take an unfair advantage without rules.
Acting in turn might be the single most important bit of advice you can teach a new player. A good dealer will control the action and correct any unclear action before the next player reacts. In your first example, when the UTG player put out 525 on a 225 wager because it involves multiple chips, it would be considered a raise. I know that you understand this. I'm merely trying to break this down so your players will understand and accept your rule. If the UTG player insists he was only calling a warning should be enough. The next time it may not be intended the way he or she expected.

 Whenever I ran tournaments, not in a casino, I would announce a few basic rules before the tournament began. "To all players...Welcome to our tournament. Our dealers are here to assist you, if this is your first tournament, be sure to make your intentions clear before you act. Always act in turn, this includes checking, betting and folding. Announce your intent or ask the dealer before you act."
 You mentioned a player who did the blind raise three times. The blind raise is fine, but I would insist that he announce his raise so there is no confusion.

 The "single oversized chip rule" is only confusing when a player pushes the bet without clarification. It must be a call without saying raise prior to pushing out the bet. The next time they will know. That's it.
TDA Rule, and a rule that is in every set of poker rules. Players must make their intentions clear!
Good luck with your Pub Poker League. You must be doing it right because you've been at it for quite some time!

[Dave Miller]

Nick -

We're actually in agreement here.

For what it's worth, the 225 --> silent 525 thing is not an UTG issue. It's a situation where the players need to be educated that casinos would rule it a raise. I was just using that as an example of where we bend the rules to keep it friendly.


I'm more interested in what casinos do about the silent UTG oversize chip, specifically when it's during/before the deal. How is it typically handled? And is it typical to handle it differently for cash vs tournament?

I'm asking not so much because I would change any league procedures, (again, keep it friendly), but because some of my players, and I, are genuinely curious about how casinos handle it.

Thanks

[Nick C]

Dave,

 If I were dealing and before the downcards have been delivered the UTG player reacted with multiple chips I would either immediately announce "raise!" If the player responds with, "I only wanted to call." the correction might be considered if the UTG+1 has not responded. This is the perfect time to announce what the future rulings in this situation will be. Another way is to ask for clarification before continuing. Example: "What's that?"

I understand "bending" some rules for a more friendly atmosphere for your Pub League, however, I believe the 'single oversize chip rule" and the multiple chips rules should not vary from TDA or Casino Poker Rules.

[Mathieu Perchoc]

In a casino, I would always rule it as a "blind call".
In this type of friendly game, a blind raise is fine by me.

[Nick C]

MathieuP75

 I agree in a "friendly" pub game that the rules can be 'bent' however.

SB 25 BB 50 UTG 100 (four 25 count chips) before the initial deal is complete...It's a raise!

SB 25 BB 50 UTG 100 (single chip) Now what? Without a declaration of raise...it should only be a call.

[Dave Miller]

You all keep missing one important aspect of my question.

In a tournament, if the UTG silently puts in a single oversize chip before the cards are dealt, what is the dealer supposed to do?

A) Announce "Call".
B) Push the chip back.
C) Ask the player what the chip is for.

If the dealer announces "call", can the player, who hasn't looked at his cards (or even gotten both yet!), state that he thought he was BB, pull it back and act in turn as normal?


The thing is, in cash games, I often see the dealer ask for a clarification from the player before announcing that it's a straddle. After all, the player could honestly be mistaken about his position. And even if the dealer simply announces the straddle, I've never seen a dealer disallow the player from bringing the chip back before checking their cards.

But what about during a tournament?

[Nick C]

I don't know of tournaments that allow straddles...and I believe I did address your question on my response #6 on this thread.

[Boris]

Hey folks,

Unburrying this one because I think this is an interesting case regarding dealer engagement.

Dave,
In your case of UTG puts a 100 chip on 25/50 blinds while the cards are being shuffled, I think this is the dealer responsability to clarify the situation. Since cards are still in the stub, asking what is the intention of the chip would not influence action at the table (I mean in this case, all players share the same informations)

Putting back the chip seems fine but unprofessional towards customer experience.

In the case of an unfortunate miss from the dealer, I would rule it as a call and remind players any raises even blinds need to be clearly stated even in a friendly environment.

I always think about the time a pub game player will go to the casino and make a huge mistake because of their bad habits. If this can prevented by teaching accurate rules, this is a win !

[Seixas]

I believe that you should consider the UTG movement as a normal action, meaning if he silently puts multiple chips, raise, one chip it's a silent call

[Sammyy90]

In our casino we very often have players agreeing to do a 100 lap on our cashgame tables.
I EXTREMELY RARELY see this happen in tournaments (we have tournaments 5 out of 7 days a week), however if it would happen the dealer should always be aware before the player looks at their cards.
If the dealer has no information whatsoever I might end up making it a call unless the entire table says something like "nono please we are doing a 100 lap", then of course I would let them keep the atmosphere. This is for cashgame only of course.
I also want to point out that the dealer can be made aware when they all agree about the 100 lap and this is a bit scetchy, if a player looks at their hand before the 100 is placed the rules are just too obvious to be put aside, usually the "aware" dealers ask beforehand if the player is tagging along for the lap before they start giving them cards. So basically the chip needs to be placed in time.

However in a tournament I would be a lot more strict because the integrity is being risked here, so most likely a call even if the table goes against me (not 100% here but its a decision made on the fly depending on many variables at the given time). But ive yet to see an entire table playing a 100 lap in a tournament, usually its a single player here and there wanting to "bump up the action".
If its completely silent I will always take it as a call.

The information needs to come from either side out of these 2 situations:
1 - The dealer asks before hand is dealt what the 100 should indicate.
2 - The player informs the dealer what the intention is before the hand is dealt.

If the player at any time has seen the cards before the chip is in place, I will always stay with the normal procedure.

[Nick C]

Nice to hear from Sammyy90 and Seixas on this one.

I really like the direction we are going in. I have always taught dealers to take an active part in the betting...

Clarification can be easily sorted out by a good dealer.

There are far too many critical errors made in tournament poker that result in unintended losses, and sometimes a windfall of chips to an undeserving player.

Players: Make your intentions clear!

Dealers: Correct an unclear action as soon as it occurs!