Author Topic: Dead hand?  (Read 1116 times)

Briankdk

  • TDA Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2
Dead hand?
« on: October 22, 2021, 08:08:29 PM »
A player is all in at final table, he has his hand on his 2 cards that are in front of him (protecting them), next 3 players fold, player 4 calls, dealer takes the 3 players cards (6 in total) AND ALSO 1 card from the player that is all in !!!, the player INSTANTLY says "you took my card !!!!!", but the distance from his 1 card to the 6 are so small, that the dealer gets the card in between the 6 cards), there is NO pending action, all other players except the 1 that called, have folded.

TD gets called, asks the player what card he have,  the player instantly answer that the card the dealer took from his hands is Q of hearts, and the card he still has is Q of clubs.

TD finds that Q of hearts is among the 7 cards, and uses rule nr 1 (and secondary 13A and 65, but primarily rule 1) to rule that the hand is still alive

Quote
1:  Floor Decisions

The best interest of the game and fairness are top priorities in decision-making. Unusual circumstances occasionally dictate that common-sense decisions in the interest of fairness take priority over technical rules. Floor decisions are final.

Please remember that the player had his hand on both cards, and the dealer pulls the one card from him - even the dealer has no explanation for why he did it - he was on autopilot and malfunctioned for a sec....

Is the ruling correct in this very unusually circumstance ?

Kind regards
Brian
« Last Edit: October 22, 2021, 08:34:39 PM by Briankdk »

Nick C

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 3300
    • http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=557;sa=forumProfile
Re: Dead hand?
« Reply #1 on: October 23, 2021, 11:49:42 AM »
Hello, Brian...That's a bad situation for sure. Obviously, the pocket queens were the best hand or we wouldn't be having this discussion. How in the hell the dealer managed to take one card from the all-in player is hard to comprehend.

There are many different situations that could make the decision easier to justify.

 Basic rules would deem the hand dead. Players must protect their own hands...in this case, the all-in player obviously failed to succeed.

Was the card in the muck?

Did the opposing player complain? Personally, I would have a tough time asking a player what his card was and then going through the muck to retrieve it. I understand why it seems logical but, I don't like it.

The ultimate test is when the floor decision is accepted by the losing player without complaint.

Dave Miller

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 375
  • Lead dealer / rules guru for World Free Poker
    • Dave MIller Gaming
Re: Dead hand?
« Reply #2 on: October 23, 2021, 06:18:38 PM »
Basic rules would deem the hand dead. Players must protect their own hands...in this case, the all-in player obviously failed to succeed.

The player had his hands on his cards? Thereís not much more he could have done to protect the hand so I disagree with Nick. Yes, he may have failed in the attempt, but the attempt was the best that could be done.

Also, objecting right away, even though somehow not fast enough, is also protecting the cards, even if that was a failed attempt as well.

Iím real curious to know what the dealer was thinking, and how he managed to snag a card so well protected and do it so quickly.

But bottom line, I think the TDís interpretation of the situation and Rule One was correct.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2021, 06:22:12 PM by Dave Miller »
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown.
But how much does it cost to knock on wood?

Nick C

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 3300
    • http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=557;sa=forumProfile
Re: Dead hand?
« Reply #3 on: October 24, 2021, 11:49:46 AM »
Dave.

 I guess if we agreed on anything there wouldn't be much of a Discussion Forum! :)

 I'd like to see a dealer try to take one of my "protected" cards! It won't happen. 8)

 You can't go in the muck and dig out a card that was never exposed or properly tabled. That's it!

 I disagree with you on this one, too!

Briankdk

  • TDA Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2
Re: Dead hand?
« Reply #4 on: October 28, 2021, 12:02:59 PM »

 Basic rules would deem the hand dead. Players must protect their own hands...in this case, the all-in player obviously failed to succeed.


It was protected - tha player had his hand on the 2 cards


Quote
Was the card in the muck?

"it was mixed with the 3 next playes card that was folded
Quote
next 3 players fold, player 4 calls, dealer takes the 3 players cards (6 in total) AND ALSO 1 card from the player that is all in"



Quote
Did the opposing player complain? Personally, I would have a tough time asking a player what his card was and then going through the muck to retrieve it. I understand why it seems logical but, I don't like it.
[ext 3 players fold, player 4 calls, dealer takes the 3 players cards (6 in total) AND ALSO 1 card from the player that is all in

Quote
The ultimate test is when the floor decision is accepted by the losing player without complaint.
It was accepted, but not without alot of moaning


« Last Edit: October 28, 2021, 12:46:28 PM by Briankdk »

Nick C

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 3300
    • http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=557;sa=forumProfile
Re: Dead hand?
« Reply #5 on: October 30, 2021, 06:38:36 PM »
Hello, Briankdk,

 Thanks for participating in the Forum.

 I understand that the hand was said to be protected, but I don't understand how any dealer would be able to complete that action and grab one card from the protected hand and muck it!

 Next, you said the card was mixed into the other 6 cards from the three players who folded...So, yes. it was mucked.

 The bottom line is: I would never go into the muck to retrieve a card unless it was properly exposed or tabled before it was mucked. That's it for me. The dealer screwed up, and the player should have protected his hand better.

MathieuP75

  • TDA Member
  • *
  • Posts: 7
  • Supervisor at Club Montmartre
Re: Dead hand?
« Reply #6 on: November 26, 2021, 01:24:13 AM »
Nick, I tend to agree with you that we should -almost- never retrieve cards in the muck.
I think the above ruling was fair and falls in that "almost" category.
I mean, why is rule number one there if we don't apply it sometimes ?