Mucked flop

[The Hitman]

Hi guys!

It's been a while I haven't posted here ;-) Happy to be back!

I have another tricky one for you:
Cashgame table, blinds 1/2, 4 players in the hand, 9€ in the pot before the flop.
Dealer burns one card and put the 3 flop cards face down on the table, but before he slides them face up, a player ask a question and our dealer gets distracted while answering. He comes back on the initial action, sees those 3 cards face down and, dealer's reflex, puts them in the muck.
Now the floor is called at the table (I wasn't there that day) and offers two options to the players:
1. Void the hand
2. reshuffle the deck without the muck and the burn card
Option 1 is refused by the players, they want to play that hand, so they choose option 2.
Player A bets and everybody folds...

I guess there is no ideal solution in that situation as it happens once in a century, but I'd like to hear what you think and how you would rule this...

We had a long chat afterwards about what to do and we ended up with 3 "solutions":
1. reshuffling the deck without the muck and the burn card
2. Reshuffling the deck with the muck and without the burn card
3. Randomly draw 3 cards from the muck to create a new flop. You keep original turn and river and you add some chances to redraw part of the initial flop

I kinda like the 3rd option but option 2 seems the most logical for me.

Thanks for your attention!

[BillM16]

Am I correct in assuming that the muck contains the flop, burn, as well as other cards mucked by players pre-flop? If so, using any cards from the muck would not be an option.  If the muck contains only the four cards not seen by anyone then shuffling those and using them as the burn and turn seems reasonable. 

[The Hitman]

Am I correct in assuming that the muck contains the flop, burn, as well as other cards mucked by players pre-flop? If so, using any cards from the muck would not be an option.  If the muck contains only the four cards not seen by anyone then shuffling those and using them as the burn and turn seems reasonable.

Your assumption is correct, muck contains discarded hands+initial flop, but not the burn card.

[Dave Miller]

Why reshuffle at all?

The original shuffle is random. The mucked flop are unknown cards. The remaining stub contains enough unknown cards so the hand can be complete without delay.

Just deal off another three cards for the flop and move on.

Stop thinking about "card destiny".

The only reason to reshuffle as you suggested is to give the cards in the original flop a chance to show up "as destined". But it also gives cards that were discarded the opportunity to show up, which is totally contrary to any 'destiny' or logic.

Please note that reshuffling a premature flop is not so much about card destiny, but about diluting the knowledge about cards in the stub. That logic doesn't apply to this situation, and certainly doesn't explain why some of the options considered including shuffling in all of the discards.

[Nick C]

Wow...what a strange situation. I really like that the options were given to the players. Considering that this will probably never happen again, whatever the players decide would be best.

Once it was confirmed that all cards were mingled together, the burn, muck, and discards I would consider a reshuffle the least likely'
Obviously, the remaining players like the hands they were dealt. How about asking them if they want to retract their wagers and drop out of the hand? How about suspending further betting and compete for the pre-flop amount only using the remainder of the stub.

Any time players are deprived of the "proper cards" only one player could be happy...the winner. Dealer mistakes have consequences.
If it were up to me, I would encourage a misdeal.

[Boris]

Hey folks,

Hitman, glad to see one of your tricky case again !

First, I tried to figure out what solution I could bring on the moment without having access to the whole TDA.
I assumed this was a Hold'em game to make this call.
I would have offered to draw a new flop from the stub without burning explaining that randomness is part of the game.

Now diving into the TDA :

RP-4. Disordered Stub

When cards remain to be dealt on a hand and the stub is accidentally dropped and appears to be disordered: 1) first try to reconstruct the stub in its original order if possible; 2) If not possible, create a new stub using only the stub cards (not the muck & prior burns). These should be scrambled, shuffled, cut, & play proceeds with the new stub; 3) If when dropped the stub is mixed in with the muck and/or burns, then scramble the mixed cards together, shuffle, and cut. Play proceeds with the new stub.

Point 3 fits well to the situation but I don't like the outcome to have discarded cards to come into play again.

RP-14: Randomness May be Applied to Special Situations

For error remedies not otherwise covered in the TDA Rules and Procedures, TDs may use the concept of randomness to design a solution.

The one who allowed me to make my call to draw a new flop.

35:  Misdeals and Fouled Decks

E: Fouled decks will be as defined by local gaming regulations and house policy. If a fouled deck is discovered, regardless of SA, play will stop and all bets will be returned. Once a hand concludes, the right to dispute based on a fouled deck ends according to Rule 22.

We need to stretch this one a bit to consider the deck is fouled so it could fit. Its crappy because we don't like to return the bets, but it could fit.


I like the randomness outcome because it does not change the information live players got preflop. I think it is the nearest timeline for the original one.

[Nick C]

Very interesting. There's a lot to think about. In the initial situation there were players who folded, so there were discards. If that situation occurred with all players remaining, (nobody folded) that would be easy enough to resolve because the prematurely mucked flop would be the only cards face down on the table...easy solution.

We all agree this might never happen again. I do like giving the active players in the hand, the option to take their money back and redeal. If they don't agree, I'd be in favor of suspending further betting, use the remaining deck to complete the hand. this will protect the players from suffering any further financial damage.