Author Topic: Player in bb folds to an allin for 1.1 bb  (Read 648 times)

Ralf009

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Player in bb folds to an allin for 1.1 bb
« on: September 12, 2020, 01:53:19 AM »
We are talking in unusual circumstances because of the Covid measurements we are obliged to close the poker room at 1:00. So to force this when the tournament is still running an icm deal will be forced at 0:45. Players still in the tournament will all receive their fair share because of this. We try to make the structure to avoid this as much as possible but when players play tight at the end...

So yesterday we had the following situation: last 2 hands have been announced before the deal is made. (6 players remaining with an average of less than 3bb and normal payout 4 players itm)
Blinds 15.000-30.000 player A shoved all-in for 33.000, action folds to the bb player who plays more than 100.000 behind. Bb asks player A if he wants a call or a fold to which he obviously says a fold and bb player folds. In normal circumstances we would warn this player that this is soft play and will give him a penalty when he repeats this action. But since the next hand is the last hand of the night this has almost no effect and even giving a penalty has almost no effect.

So the question rises can we oblige this player to make this call or (also based on the table talk where he asks the other player what he wants) is disqualification an option?

Extra info it happened in a low stakes (Ä20 buy-in) tournament in a room where most players are recreational and donít even know these kind of rules about soft playing. This mainly being the reason why we let it happen this time, but we kept wondering what the options would be if we decided to take action.

Thanks in advance for your responses

BillM16

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Re: Player in bb folds to an allin for 1.1 bb
« Reply #1 on: September 12, 2020, 05:18:56 AM »
Welcome to the forum Ralf!  I must say, it is rare that we receive such a well-written post from a new member.

There are several pertinent TDA Rules of 2019 regarding your situation. These can be easily found by searching for phrase "one player" in the free TDA Rules iOS App.  In particular:


2: Player Responsibilities
67: No Disclosure. One Player to a Hand


So, the player has violated the One Player to a Hand rule.  Your question is whether you can oblige the player to make a call or to disqualify the player.  According to TDA Rules of 2019:


71: Warnings, Penalties, & Disqualification

A: Enforcement options include verbal warnings, one or more “missed hand” or “missed round” penalties, and disqualification. For missed rounds, the offender will miss one hand for every player (including him or her) at the table when the penalty is given multiplied by the number of penalty rounds. Repeat infractions are subject to escalating penalties. Players away from the table or on penalty may be anted or blinded out of a tournament.

B: A penalty may be invoked for etiquette violations (Rule 70), card exposure with action pending, throwing cards, violating one-player-to-a-hand, or similar incidents. Penalties will be given for soft play, abuse, disruptive behavior, or cheating. Checking the exclusive nuts when last to act on the river is not an automatic soft play violation; TD’s discretion applies based on the situation.


So IMO, if you decide that the player has violated the rule(s) and has had sufficient warning or has done so repeatedly then your options are quite broad, up to and including forfeiture of chips and disqualification.  Again IMO, forcing the player to make a call is not an option.  In your situation, you might decide that the player violated one player to a hand by asking the other player what he wanted.  The other question is whether or not the action of folding is then considered soft play.  However, another possibility is that the player was simply trying to get a read on his opponent.  Maybe the player had a borderline calling hand and would make the call only if he read the opponent as weak and would fold if the read was strong.  Given the information in your excellent post, I believe I'd issue the warning assuming this was the first such offense.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2020, 05:28:43 AM by BillM16 »

Dave Miller

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Re: Player in bb folds to an allin for 1.1 bb
« Reply #2 on: September 14, 2020, 06:41:24 AM »
I'm not a TD, I just play one in a pub league.

I agree that, even if the BB didn't ask if the all-in player wants a call, folding to such a small raise is soft play. It's also extremely bad strategy, particularly with the ICM chop coming so soon. The chance to eliminate one player right before the chop? I'd take that chance every day of the week.

While a penalty, or even a warning, at that late stage would be pointless, merely explaining the situation while payouts are being made would probably be sufficient. However, I suspect that the player either figured it out or had it pointed out to him by some of the other players.

On the other hand, just how friendly was this group? Folding there is much akin to players agreeing to pay the bubble.
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BillM16

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Re: Player in bb folds to an allin for 1.1 bb
« Reply #3 on: September 14, 2020, 06:57:03 AM »
I have witnessed tournaments playing hand-for-hand where there was but only one player yet to bust.  On the next all-in hand AA got cracked by AKo.  So, there was a small percentage (~7%) of the Aces going home broke.  Some players would say "I'd take that chance every day of the week."  Others would say, "I'm here to win $$, not to win every hand." But, maybe the AA figured he accomplished part of his goal - he eliminated one player before the money. ;-)
« Last Edit: September 14, 2020, 01:12:54 PM by BillM16 »