Author Topic: Folding winning hand, are verbals binding at showdown, & RDW misc.  (Read 22847 times)

Nick C

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 3310
    • http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=557;sa=forumProfile
Re: Folding winning hand, are verbals binding at showdown, & RDW misc.
« Reply #15 on: June 04, 2010, 07:37:54 AM »
Stuart,

 Thanks for that link. I've seen it before. The floor was correct. There are specific rules regarding the order of showdown. The player was asked by the dealer to reveal his hand, he chose not to. His hand is incomplete. He never thought that his hand was best and he did not want to show his poor hand. That is similar to the situation that Guillaume described. At the showdown the last player to initiate the final bet, or raise is the first to show their hand, therefore, if that player throws their hand face down in the direction of the muck, it is dead.

I noticed a few things that were different as far as procedures. The flop was placed on the table from right to left, the muck was way out of position. Just my observation.

Nick C

Stuart Murray

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 645
Re: Folding winning hand, are verbals binding at showdown, & RDW misc.
« Reply #16 on: June 04, 2010, 08:23:55 AM »
He he,

yeh I noticed his dealing was right to left too, must be a leftie!  nice stub and pot management otherwise though (apart from the showdown issues!)

Stu

Nick C

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 3310
    • http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=557;sa=forumProfile
Re: Folding winning hand, are verbals binding at showdown, & RDW misc.
« Reply #17 on: June 04, 2010, 08:36:16 AM »
Stuart,

 The dealer was right handed. It's just another example of how difficult it is to get things done the way they should. House rules are one thing, but procedures? I don't think they should be that different.

AleaLeedsCardRoom

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 58
Re: Folding winning hand, are verbals binding at showdown, & RDW misc.
« Reply #18 on: June 04, 2010, 11:41:21 AM »
In my opinion if you throw you cards face down away from you at the show down then your hand is dead and cannot win the pot, unless as Stuart has already stated this was done due to serious miss information.
With respect to the "cards speaking" if someone tables and hand and oanyother person says "you win" or some other non specific phrase then personally I neg them until I have their cards in the muck, as I dont want to be in the middle of awarding the pot and then have them table the winning hand!!!

MikeB

  • Administrator
  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • *****
  • Posts: 1156
Re: Folding winning hand, are verbals binding at showdown, & RDW misc.
« Reply #19 on: June 04, 2010, 01:24:19 PM »
WOW ... This situation (together with the other one : the last player at showdown with cards obliged - or not - to show is hand) shows that at SHOWDOWN: we must all help the TDA to create clear rules!

So what about this first conclusion (following - or not - some of your advises) :
GG: I would generally agree with this list but add to it that a hand must be formally killed by the dealer before it is irretrievably dead. This avoids the need to do any parsing of gestures or utterances at showdown. Either the hand has been formally killed by the dealer or it is live and Cards Speak.  Also, there may need to be a distinction for tables using a betting line.
... So my (humble) actual responses to thoses two showdown problems are:

1) Must the last possesor of a hand at showdown show it to win the pot? ... NO! (in general) This was agreed to at the 2009 Summit, assuming that the opposing player had mucked face-down at showdown.2)
Does a folded winning hand et showdown wins the pot if returned by someone else? ... NO! (in general) I would apply the rules of asking to see a hand here.

My general spirit (when facing a "no-rule" situation) is to RESPONSABILIZE the players. The membership took a big step towards this in 2009, IMO, when the language "a player must make their intentions clear" was adopted.
 But once again the day the TDA choose a CLEAR RULE: I will follow it IN THE BEST INTEREST OF OUR JOB!
« Last Edit: June 04, 2010, 05:50:00 PM by MikeB »

Nick C

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 3310
    • http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=557;sa=forumProfile
Re: Folding winning hand, are verbals binding at showdown, & RDW misc.
« Reply #20 on: June 04, 2010, 03:08:30 PM »
Mike,
  In my opinion, verbal is binding and when it is your turn to act (bet or check), and you announce that you are folding and throw your hand in the direction of the muck. the hand is dead. I would like to hear from Jack Mcclelland or another member of the WSOP or WPT. It is against poker etiquette (when it is your turn to act with no bet in front of you) to throw your hand away when there are multiple players in a hand, but when facing only one player, (possibly after a failed attempt to induce the opposing player to fold after the turn) and missing your flush or straight on the river, folding your hand when you are first to act is quite comon. If a player at the table requests to see the hand (because it is treated as a called hand) then the dealer should kill the hand by touchiong it to the muck, award the pot to the winner and then turn the surrendered hand over for all to see. Mike, the only thing that I can think of, that would lead you to your decision is; maybe you are thinking that the players have already checked and the dealer is waiting for someone to show down their hand? Even then, I would have a tough time ruling that hand live.

What fun would it be if we all agreed.
Nick C

MikeB

  • Administrator
  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • *****
  • Posts: 1156
Re: Folding winning hand, are verbals binding at showdown, & RDW misc.
« Reply #21 on: June 04, 2010, 06:25:45 PM »
Mike, In my opinion, verbal is binding and when it is your turn to act (bet or check), and you announce that you are folding and throw your hand in the direction of the muck. the hand is dead. That's not the showdown, that's a fold during a betting round. I would like to hear from Jack Mcclelland or another member of the WSOP or WPT. It is against poker etiquette (when it is your turn to act with no bet in front of you) to throw your hand away when there are multiple players in a hand, but when facing only one player, (possibly after a failed attempt to induce the opposing player to fold after the turn) and missing your flush or straight on the river, folding your hand when you are first to act is quite comon. Again, that's a binding fold when it's your turn to act during a betting round, it isn't a showdown situation. If a player at the table requests to see the hand (because it is treated as a called hand) then the dealer should kill the hand by touching it to the muck, award the pot to the winner and then turn the surrendered hand over for all to see. Mike, the only thing that I can think of, that would lead you to your decision is; maybe you are thinking that the players have already checked and the dealer is waiting for someone to show down their hand? All the situations I described are clearly showdown situations after all betting action is completed and the pot is right. All remaining players have paid to participate in the showdown and the goal is to find the best hand using Cards Speak as the standard. A face down muck is a showdown aberration for which discussions at the last Summit went so far as to confirm the dealer should honor the request and proceed to muck (kill) the hand...and under those conditions the remaining hand need not be shown... so far, so good. The problem I have is in ruling a showdown hand irretrievably dead BEFORE it's been formally killed by the dealer...if you enforce "I fold" as a binding utterance in the showdown, then where do you draw the line? Is it only that phrase? Or might ANY phrase or even a GESTURE which would be considered a binding folding while facing action also permanently kill a hand at showdown? Lets say the guy says "I fold" but continues to hold his cards at showdown, do you declare his hand irretrievably dead and award the pot? It would be stone dead during a betting round... If he holds his cards at showdown but says "you win", is his hand irretrievably dead? Many would rule that hand dead if he said "you win" when facing a bet in a betting round... If so then we're going to have to police all verbal discussion at showdown as closely as we do during betting action. IMO that's what the entire idea of Cards Speak does: it gets us away from having to parse any verbals or gestures at showdown. Thanks to everyone who has opined on this topic, if it's taken up for rules review/clarification by the membership this dialogue should be very helpful in framing the issues.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2010, 09:46:56 PM by MikeB »

Martin L. Waller

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 55
Re: Folding winning hand, are verbals binding at showdown, & RDW misc.
« Reply #22 on: June 07, 2010, 02:40:34 PM »
 WOW GG,

Have you opened a can of worms?

If a player tosses his cards in with the intent to muck/fold no one should turn those cards up.
As long as they are not placed in the muck and are identifiable they are live.
A dealer should grab them as fast as he can and muck them.
Another player should be penalized for touching the cards.
In these instances, I would have a talk with the dealer and the other player.
If the player announces fold or tosses his cards in his intent is clear but the cards must touch the muck to be dead.
Iíve had players ask to see a called hand.
Before I turn it up I will muck it and then retrieve it so that it is dead prior to showing it.
In both cases, as much as I would hate to do it, the winning hand speaks and would take the pot.

As for the RDW case, I donít see the issue.
He showed a meaningless card.
He placed his cards into the cards under the chips.
Why did the dealer stop him and pull the cards out?
His hand was dead.

It is also interesting how many English words are not translated in poker, like Turn and River. Just noticing.

Good game to you,
Martin

Nick C

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 3310
    • http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=557;sa=forumProfile
Re: Folding winning hand, are verbals binding at showdown, & RDW misc.
« Reply #23 on: June 07, 2010, 03:27:37 PM »
Martin,

  You bring up a very interesting topic regarding the incident in Barcelona. Why did the dealer turn over the cards after they were in the muck? The more I watch that, the more interesting it becomes. I thought that the dealer did everthing right up to that point. He asked the initial bettor to expose his hand and when he only turned over the king of clubs, he prompted the player to show the other card (which he mucked instead). If the dealer would have mucked the hand and pushed the pot to the winner, the ultimate decision of the floor would have been a lot easier. I still like the call.
  For the record, my feelings about the original question posted by Guillaume are as I stated in my earlier posts. They are two completely different situations. Guillaume's example did not invole a bet and call on the last round, it was a check/fold or a check/out.
  Martin, I also wanted to know how you feel about the flop, turn and river going from right to left? It would be good to hear from some of our newer members, also.

Thanks for listening.
Nick C

Martin L. Waller

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 55
Re: Folding winning hand, are verbals binding at showdown, & RDW misc.
« Reply #24 on: June 08, 2010, 08:52:21 AM »
Nick,

I believe that the cards being dealt from the dealers left to right was just natural for right handed dealers.

Iím right handed but pitch left so Iím a left handed dealer. There are more of us than I ever imagined. Lefties turn the flop from right to left where righties turn the flop from left to right. Dealing from left to right for a lefty is more difficult. I donít understand where the idea came from for a right handed dealer to place cards from right to left. That just isnít natural.

I guess it was decided somewhere that it was better from the players side of the table. Is it a European thing?

For me, I was trained to place the turn and river cards from left to right to replicate the right handed dealers. It is just the way casinos have always done.

I donít see an issue either way but it should be standard. 

Good games to you,
Martin


Nick C

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 3310
    • http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=557;sa=forumProfile
Re: Folding winning hand, are verbals binding at showdown, & RDW misc.
« Reply #25 on: June 08, 2010, 09:21:32 AM »
Martin,

 When you approach a table and all five board cards are in place, you should be able to determine what the flop. turn and river cards were. The biggest issue is online poker. Most sites show the dealer at the top of the screen, but when the cards come out, the flop is on the left, folowed by the turn on the right and the river on the right, which is wrong. The only time I've ever seen a live dealer in the box deal that way is on that link from Barcelona. It makes no difference if you are right handed or left handed. When you are seated at the table, the placement of the flop is on your left in line with your left shoulder. I realize that some left handed dealers turn the flop in the opposite direction from right handed dealers, but the turn card and river should still be placed to the right of the flop, not the left. It might not be much of an issue with players because the same cards are still on the board but, when you teach dealing as a profession it should be noted.

Just an observation
Nick C

AleaLeedsCardRoom

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 58
Re: Folding winning hand, are verbals binding at showdown, & RDW misc.
« Reply #26 on: June 08, 2010, 11:06:54 AM »
Forgive me for digressing slightly, but I am curious, several people have commented that the flop should go on the left the turn to its right and the river again to the turns right.  I am left handed and when I deal thats how i put out the community cards, but does it actually say anywhere in the rules this ihow they should be done, as I cant find it.  I'm asking parly out of curiosity and partly because I have seen some dealers put the turn and river below the flop.  Personally speaking I can see nothign wrong with this as it is still obvious which cards are what street.  I'd justl ike to know if it is official somewhere or just convention.

Thanks
Lewis

Nick C

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 3310
    • http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=557;sa=forumProfile
Re: Folding winning hand, are verbals binding at showdown, & RDW misc.
« Reply #27 on: June 08, 2010, 12:43:24 PM »
Lewis,

 There are no rules for it. I am a poker dealer instructor and I have been teaching dealers for over thirty years and I think that there should be. I have seen dealers turn the flop one card at a time. I don't like it but, they can do whatever they want if it is accepted. I would like to see a standardized set of rules and procedures for dealers as well as players. Just my observation. I will say this, just because you see it on television, or at a tournament or in a casino or, on the internet, that doesn't necessarily make it right. There are a few books on the market for dealers that are pretty good, but how do you get everyone "on the same page?" It is very difficult. I applaud the TDA for trying to standardize a set of rules that everyone could use, but as soon as people disagree, they will continue to do it the way they want, unfortunately.
Not a rule, just my observation.
Nick C
« Last Edit: April 23, 2018, 04:26:24 PM by Nick C »

Martin L. Waller

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 55
Re: Folding winning hand, are verbals binding at showdown, & RDW misc.
« Reply #28 on: June 08, 2010, 10:45:50 PM »
Nick,

I agree with what you are trying to do but is it the TDAís place? Who can make this standardized rule so that it will be followed? I donít know. 

There is no dealers union that does the training.
Most dealers are taught in a dealerís schools that are just trying to get their grads an audition. Then they are taught by the casinos to do everything their way.

In ďThe Professional Poker Dealerís HandbookĒ by Dan Paymar, Donna Harris and Mason Malmuth there is a good section on placement of the community cards.

The pot is left of center in front of the dealerís left shoulder. ďThe first card should line up with the left edge of the rack and stay where itís dropped as the other two slide to the right.Ē They go on to say the Turn and River are placed to the right of the Flop.

As far as Iím concerned there is only one way to deal the community cards. But, there is a difference once you cross the Atlantic. Iíve seen some European dealers seem to deal poker like they are dealing out of a shoe. If Iím not mistaken they also deal Blackjack different over there.

As for my comment about lefties and righties, I was just trying to explain how we got to this point. The only difference in a leftie and a rightie is how they spread the Flop. Righties spread left to right and lefties spread right to left. The Turn and River are still placed right of the Flop. 

Iíve never thought about the difference with on-line games. They place the cards from the dealerís point of view. That is strange.

Good games to you,
Martin