Author Topic: Prior bet chips not PULLED IN?  (Read 1341 times)

Nick C

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Prior bet chips not PULLED IN?
« on: January 18, 2020, 06:37:20 AM »
I always had an issue with our TDA rule that applies to "Chips not pulled in." I thought a better choice of words would be either retracted or pulled back.

46: PriorBet Chips Not Pulled In??? A: To avoid confusion, players with prior-bet chips not yet pulled in who face a raise should verbalize their action before adding chips to the prior bet. B: If facing a raise, clearly pulling back a prior bet chip binds a player to call or raise; he or she may not put the chip(s) back out and fold.C: If new chip(s) are added silently and the bet is unclear to the house, the call and raise rules 41-45apply as follows: 1) If prior chips donít cover the call AND are either left alone OR fully pulled back, an overchip is a call and multiple new chips are subject to the 50% raise standard(Rule 43). 2) If prior chips are partly pulled back OR if prior chips cover the call, the combined final chipbet is a raise if reaching the 50% standard (Rules43& 45), if less it is a call. See Illustration Addendum

BillM16

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Re: Prior bet chips not PULLED IN?
« Reply #1 on: January 18, 2020, 10:21:23 AM »
I always had an issue with our TDA rule that applies to "Chips not pulled in." I thought a better choice of words would be either retracted or pulled back.

46: PriorBet Chips Not Pulled In??? A: To avoid confusion, players with prior-bet chips not yet pulled in who face a raise should verbalize their action before adding chips to the prior bet. B: If facing a raise, clearly pulling back a prior bet chip binds a player to call or raise; he or she may not put the chip(s) back out and fold.C: If new chip(s) are added silently and the bet is unclear to the house, the call and raise rules 41-45apply as follows: 1) If prior chips don’t cover the call AND are either left alone OR fully pulled back, an overchip is a call and multiple new chips are subject to the 50% raise standard(Rule 43). 2) If prior chips are partly pulled back OR if prior chips cover the call, the combined final chipbet is a raise if reaching the 50% standard (Rules43& 45), if less it is a call. See Illustration Addendum

Changing a single phrase doesn't make it much better in my opinion.  I would prefer something more along the lines of:


PROPOSAL - NOT THE OFFICIAL RULE
46: Making Multiple Bets

On each street, a player may have an opportunity to act more than once.  Having made a prior call or raise, a player's previously bet chips are live and may be considered part of their subsequent action.  To avoid confusion, these players should verbalize their action when calling or raising a bet.  Silently adding chips to their previously bet chips can often make their intended action unclear.  When their action is unclear, the house will determine the action.  See Rules #41, #45, and the Illustrations.

In all cases, silently pulling back one or more chips from previously bet chips binds a player to either a call or raise.  They may not pull back part of their prior bet and then decide to fold.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2020, 07:08:30 PM by BillM16 »

Nick C

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Re: Prior bet chips not PULLED IN?
« Reply #2 on: January 18, 2020, 02:00:40 PM »
Bill...I like it. What I like is the fact that you did what I suggested...you eliminated Pulled in! Like I said, pulled back or retracted makes a heck of a lot more sense than Pulled in???

Dave Miller

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Re: Prior bet chips not PULLED IN?
« Reply #3 on: January 19, 2020, 09:38:59 PM »
I frequently see players pull back a prior bet, place it on their cards, and then push the cards with chips on top forward, to fold. This happens most frequently pre-flop with the blinds when there has been a raise.

Are we saying that a player that does that is going to get their cards back, and be bound to a call?
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Nick C

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Re: Prior bet chips not PULLED IN?
« Reply #4 on: January 19, 2020, 10:02:04 PM »
Dave...I'm sorry, you lost me on this one. We are talking about players retracting their smaller blind or wager to increase it to call a raise or complete a bet. I have no idea what you are referring to.

BillM16

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Re: Prior bet chips not PULLED IN?
« Reply #5 on: January 20, 2020, 06:46:31 AM »
I frequently see players pull back a prior bet, place it on their cards, and then push the cards with chips on top forward, to fold. This happens most frequently pre-flop with the blinds when there has been a raise.

Are we saying that a player that does that is going to get their cards back, and be bound to a call?


TDA Rules 2019
46: Prior Bet Chips Not Pulled In
B: If facing a raise, clearly pulling back a prior bet chip binds a player to call or raise; he or she may not put the chip(s) back out and fold.


Dave's players are simply trying to assist the dealer by moving their cards and chips forward while folding.  Technically, they could be held to a call if they pulled back a prior bet chip in that effort.  However, I'd rule (#1) that they were folding. I'd also tell the table that assistance is appreciated but that they should announce their action before touching their prior bet to avoid confusion.

Dave Miller

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Re: Prior bet chips not PULLED IN?
« Reply #6 on: January 20, 2020, 04:07:03 PM »
Bill -

Yeah, thatís what theyíre doing. Itís like one motion. Certainly not any type of delay tactic or angle shoot. Rule #1 / fold works for me. I may start warning players about it - except theyíll start calling me a Rule Nazi. Again 😡

Why do they do it? Beats me.

When Iím playing, when I fold with a prior bet in front, Iíll just push the cards into the chips and continue pushing until they are well within the dealerís reach.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2020, 04:08:25 PM by Dave Miller »
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Nick C

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Re: Prior bet chips not PULLED IN?
« Reply #7 on: January 21, 2020, 02:46:08 PM »
We all agree that action should not be taken. I'd like to go back to my original question. Should we change "Pulled in" to "Pulled back" or "retracted"? The way I see it, this is the only time any player may touch his or her already bet chips!

MikeB

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Re: Prior bet chips not PULLED IN?
« Reply #8 on: January 21, 2020, 11:36:30 PM »
The intent of "not yet pulled in" is "not yet pulled into the central pot". By just adding "into the pot" or "into the central pot" the first place the phrase appears in the rule the meaning should be unmistakable.

Nick C

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Re: Prior bet chips not PULLED IN?
« Reply #9 on: January 22, 2020, 09:54:05 PM »
Mike,
 Can you agree that chips that are already wagered, across a betting line or placed into the bet area are not allowed to be taken back...they are not in the center pot but are part of the pot. What we are addressing is the single exception to the rule. That is retracting already wagered chips to complete a blind, or a bet or a raise. That's it. Example: Blinds 2 and 5...action returns to the SB. The SB player retracts his 2 and replaces it with a 5. Simple and it happens every day in every cardroom in the land. I just think that "pulled in" is not the best choice of words. It leads to confusion.

MikeB

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Re: Prior bet chips not PULLED IN?
« Reply #10 on: January 23, 2020, 09:32:29 PM »
Mike,
 Can you agree that chips that are already wagered, across a betting line or placed into the bet area are not allowed to be taken back...they are not in the center pot but are part of the pot. What we are addressing is the single exception to the rule. That is retracting already wagered chips to complete a blind, or a bet or a raise. That's it. Example: Blinds 2 and 5...action returns to the SB. The SB player retracts his 2 and replaces it with a 5. Simple and it happens every day in every cardroom in the land. I just think that "pulled in" is not the best choice of words. It leads to confusion.
The original OP didn't seem to be limited just to blinds but rather to the entirety of the rule.
Regardless, the best thing is to look at Illustration Addendum which provides 5 examples of how the rule is applied in different situations.
https://www.pokertda.com/view-poker-tda-rules/   scroll down to Illustration Addendum, Rule 46 for the examples.

Nick C

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Re: Prior bet chips not PULLED IN?
« Reply #11 on: January 25, 2020, 01:22:05 PM »
Thanks, Mike,

I went to the Addendum and the explanation given confirms what I'm suggesting. Here is what I copied and pasted:  "If prior chips donít cover the call AND are either left alone OR fully pulled back,"

MikeB

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Re: Prior bet chips not PULLED IN?
« Reply #12 on: January 28, 2020, 10:10:59 AM »
Thanks, Mike,

I went to the Addendum and the explanation given confirms what I'm suggesting. Here is what I copied and pasted:  "If prior chips donít cover the call AND are either left alone OR fully pulled back,"
So I think the issue you're raising is that technically chips out in front of a player from a previous bet should not be retracted by the player. However, in reality that happens all the time. Players will reach out, add a chip(s), take one back... in order to get their bet right. And most of the time it doesn't create a problem, the dealer is following the action and understands what the player's action is. Hence notice the key redline change to Rule 46-C "if new chip(s) are added silently and the bet is unclear to the house". SO, the guidelines in 46-C are really intended only for those few outlier situations where there's some confusion about what the legit bet is based on the player's action. It's not intended to be invoked everytime a player adds to the prior chips and the action is crystal clear.

The more important parts of Rule 46 are really A and B which do apply to every situation: A, that a player with prior-bet chips in front should verbalize action prior to putting out new chips AND B, that pulling back any or all of the prior chip(s) binds the player to at least call. In the past some players had manipulated prior chip(s) in order to get a read then throw them back out and fold, that was ruled illegal at the TDA Summit in 2015.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2020, 12:29:24 PM by MikeB »

Nick C

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Re: Prior bet chips not PULLED IN?
« Reply #13 on: January 28, 2020, 06:31:20 PM »
Mike.
 All I'm saying is pulled back or retracted is a better choice for understanding the rule than "pulled in." That's it. Once a wager is placed into the betting area we all know that the bet can not be taken back, as long as it was made in turn. So, when a player already has a wager in the betting area, that is part of the pot, the only time we allow a player to "touch" those chips again is if they are completing a blind or calling a raise or raising themselves.

 I understand the rule. However, when I first saw it, years ago, I questioned it then and I can see where it can cause confusion. Keep it the way it is. I'll explain what it means when my students question it. I have not checked but is there any other set of poker rules that define this situation with "pulled in?" Just curious.

Nick C

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Re: Prior bet chips not PULLED IN?
« Reply #14 on: January 28, 2020, 07:22:22 PM »
What we are actually addressing is exchanging chips. Exchanging smaller denominations for a corrected larger chip or chips. My thoughts on this have a lot to do with fundamental dealer procedures. Chips are not pulled into the pot by the dealer until all wagers have been completed for that street or round of betting.