Author Topic: Counting chips behind  (Read 470 times)

Dave Miller

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Counting chips behind
« on: January 04, 2020, 07:07:07 PM »
A player who is facing an all in bet asks the only other player in the hand how much they have behind.

I know the player is not obligated to count it, but must have the chips stacked neatly and be countable.

So if the player doesnít want to count it, can the dealer / floor count it?
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown.
But how much does it cost to knock on wood?

BillM16

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Re: Counting chips behind
« Reply #1 on: January 04, 2020, 07:27:51 PM »
Dave,

Here are relevant rules that provide some guidance.


25:  Cards & Chips Kept Visible, Countable, & Manageable. Discretionary Color-Ups
A: Players, dealers, and the floor are entitled to a reasonable estimation of chip counts; thus, chips should be kept in countable stacks. The TDA recommends clean vertical stacks of 20 same denomination chips each as a standard. Higher denomination chips must be visible and identifiable at all times. If a floorperson cannot look at a chipstack and quickly estimate its value, players likely can’t either.

49:  Accepted Action
Poker is a game of alert, continuous observation. It is the caller’s responsibility to determine the correct amount of an opponent’s bet before calling, regardless of what is stated by others. If a caller requests a count but receives incorrect information from a dealer or player, then pushes out that amount or declares call, the caller has accepted the full correct action & is subject to the correct wager or all-in amount. As with all situations, Rule 1 may apply at TD’s discretion. See also RP-12

54:  Pot Size & Pot-Limit Bets
A: Players are entitled to a pot count in pot-limit only. Dealers will not count the pot in limit and no-limit.

60:  Count of Opponent’s Chip Stack
Players, dealers, and the floor are entitled to a reasonable estimation of opponents’ chip stacks (Rule 25). A player may request a more precise count only if facing an all-in bet and it is his or her turn to act. The all-in player is not required to count; on request the dealer or floor will count it. Accepted action applies (Rule 49). Visible and countable chip stacks (Rule 25) greatly improve counting accuracy.

RP-12: Dealers Should Announce Bets & Raises
Dealers should routinely announce non-all-in bet values as betting proceeds around the table. All-in bets will be counted only on request of the player currently facing action. Accepted action continues to apply (Rule 49). Scheduled and discretionary color-ups improve bet countability.


According to Rule #25 and #60,  the player is entitled to a reasonable estimation.  Rule #60 says that when the player is also facing an all-in bet and it is their turn to act, they may request a more precise count. However, it pertains only to the all-in wager, not another player's stack who has yet to act.  I'd rule that your player is entitled only to a reasonable estimation of that player's stack.

These rules regarding visible, countable or estimable chip stacks exist to promote orderly and timely game flow.  Requesting full counts of stacks not all-in or pots in other than pot-limit games should not be honored.  The errant requestor and players with disorderly stacks should be cautioned accordingly.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2020, 06:44:50 AM by BillM16 »

Nick C

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Re: Counting chips behind
« Reply #2 on: January 05, 2020, 08:39:22 AM »
I believe the TDA rules that Bill posted answers the question. I watch Poker on TV daily and players are constantly asking for a count of an opposing players stack.  Perhaps they are trying to get the player to speak? They may be able to get a "read" from the players response. The problem that could arise is when a grossly inaccurate answer is given.  I never thought that I would defend or offer support for Accepted Action but this is a perfect example of why the need for such a rule. As long as chips are clearly visible, the calling player should be aware of how much it's going to cost.


Dave Miller

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Re: Counting chips behind
« Reply #3 on: January 06, 2020, 08:22:38 AM »
... it pertains only to the all-in wager, not another player's stack who has yet to act.  I'd rule that your player is entitled only to a reasonable estimation of that player's stack.

These rules regarding visible, countable or estimable chip stacks exist to promote orderly and timely game flow.  Requesting full counts of stacks not all-in or pots in other than pot-limit games should not be honored.
Although I canít remember having anyone request such a count prior to last week, Iím surprised that the dealer / floor person is not allowed to count it. On the other hand, since a count of the pot is discouraged, it makes sense. Then again, I donít entirely agree with that rule either.

Ok. Thanks.
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown.
But how much does it cost to knock on wood?