Author Topic: Substantial action on a premature river  (Read 837 times)

Dave Miller

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Substantial action on a premature river
« on: December 18, 2019, 09:01:29 AM »
Several players check the turn. Because the last player to act has his hands over his cards, the dealer doesnít realize he has a hand and puts out the river.

The first person to act makes a bet.

The last player finally speaks up, saying he didnít act on the turn.

Whatís the rule?
« Last Edit: December 20, 2019, 11:19:08 AM by MikeB »
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BillM16

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Re: Significant action on a premature river
« Reply #1 on: December 18, 2019, 01:08:04 PM »
There are several relevant rules, including:

2: Player Responsibilities
... defend their right to act, keep cards visible ...

25: Cards & Chips Kept Visible, Countable, & Manageable. Discretionary Color-Ups
C: Players must keep live hands in plain view at all times.


This is not a case of action OOT or substantial action.  The player failed to defend their right to act and to keep their live cards visible.

IMO: There was plenty of time for the skipped player to notify the dealer, who presumably wrapped the table, burned a card, and brought the river.  Still the player didn't say anything, until another player bet.  Therefore, the skipped player has no reasonable complaint. Action will continue and the skipped player still has a live hand and all options in turn.


« Last Edit: December 18, 2019, 02:14:57 PM by BillM16 »

Dave Miller

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Re: Significant action on a premature river
« Reply #2 on: December 18, 2019, 02:42:29 PM »
Thatís kinda what I thought.

Except...

What if there was a bet on the turn?

I would think that whatever is ruled should apply in both cases.
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown.
But how much does it cost to knock on wood?

Nick C

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Re: Significant action on a premature river
« Reply #3 on: December 18, 2019, 11:33:28 PM »
If there were a bet on the turn and the last player was skipped the turn card would not remain. The problem in your case is a little different because of the skipped player waiting so long. I would have to rule the skipped players' hand dead because of the time that lapsed. A tap and burn is bad enough but to wait for a player to bet the river and a player failed to call the turn...his hand is dead in my game.

MikeB

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Re: Substantial action on a premature river
« Reply #4 on: December 20, 2019, 11:18:46 AM »
There's another applicable rule, 53-B:

53:  Action Out of Turn (OOT)

A: Any action out of turn (check, call, or raise) will be backed up to the correct player in order. The OOT action is subject to penalty and is binding if action to the OOT player does not change. A check, call or fold by the correct player does not change action. If action changes, the OOT action is not binding; any bet or raise is returned to the OOT player who has all options: call, raise, or fold. An OOT fold is binding. See Illustration Addendum.

B: Players skipped by OOT action must defend their right to act. If a skipped player had reasonable time and does not speak up before substantial action (Rule 36) OOT occurs after the player, the OOT action is binding. Action backs up and the floor will rule on how to treat the skipped hand given the circumstances, including ruling the hand dead or limiting the player to non-aggressive action. See Addendum.

NOW, strictly-speaking this rule isn't quite met because there's been only one betting action OOT (the opening bet on the river). So ultimately this case must be decided by Rule 1. As background, when this rule addition was adopted in 2013 at the Venetian Summit the attendees debated whether to consider the intervening deal as a separate action towards substantial action. If that were adopted in this case, the deal of the river would be one action and the opening river bet would be a second action with chips. The concept of the deal as an action was not formally adopted but nothing prohibits a TD of making that interpretation under Rule 1 on case-by-case basis.

SO, Case 1, the dealer overlooks Player "Last" on the turn, rapidly burns and deals the river, then "Last" immediately speaks up just as Player "A" is making the first river bet. In that case I would probably consider the river card prematurely dealt.

Case 2, Player "Last" has reasonable opportunity to act on the turn, he's contemplating (he assumes the dealer realizes he's in) when the dealer inexplicably burns and deals the river, Player A snap bets and Last immediately speaks up. In this case I'm probably favoring holding Last to non-aggressive action on the river though some might kill his hand.

Case 3, same as 2 except Last has reasonable opportunity to speak up on the turn and to speak up and stop the bet on the river, meanwhile keeping his cards covered. In this case I would likely consider Last's cards dead. The key factor for me in this case is he had reasonable time to stop the river bet and didn't.

Thoughts on these cases, what do you base your Rule 1 decision on here?

Thanks for the interesting case! BTW, I'm changing title of thread from "significant" to "substantial"

Case 2, Player "Last" has 

BillM16

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Re: Substantial action on a premature river
« Reply #5 on: December 22, 2019, 07:47:14 AM »

B: Players skipped by OOT action must defend their right to act. If a skipped player had reasonable time and does not speak up before substantial action (Rule 36) OOT occurs after the player, the OOT action is binding. Action backs up and the floor will rule on how to treat the skipped hand given the circumstances, including ruling the hand dead or limiting the player to non-aggressive action. See Addendum.

NOW, strictly-speaking this rule isn't quite met because there's been only one betting action OOT (the opening bet on the river). So ultimately this case must be decided by Rule 1. As background, when this rule addition was adopted in 2013 at the Venetian Summit the attendees debated whether to consider the intervening deal as a separate action towards substantial action. If that were adopted in this case, the deal of the river would be one action and the opening river bet would be a second action with chips. The concept of the deal as an action was not formally adopted but nothing prohibits a TD of making that interpretation under Rule 1 on case-by-case basis.

The attendees who debated this in 2013 made the right decision. It would be wrong to count dealing a next street as one action in substantial action. 

All players MUST defend their right to act and keep their cards visible.  In this scenario, the TD should NEVER back the action up to the skipped player to allow that player to bet, raise, or fold unless they are facing a bet.

I would be in favor of an illustration that describes this very scenario.  While all players have responsibility to keep their hole cards visible and defend their right to act, it is especially important for the player who is acting last.  Unless facing a bet, if the last to act fails to defend their right to act before the dealer wraps the table, burns a card, and brings the next street, the last player has checked.  Otherwise, angle shooting is far too easy here.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2019, 06:08:22 PM by BillM16 »

Nick C

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Re: Substantial action on a premature river
« Reply #6 on: December 22, 2019, 05:59:52 PM »
This is interesting. I think I agreed with what Mike said. I was not in attendance in 2013...however, this topic was discussed on other occasions. I remember suggesting that the "dealer" should be considered as the second person for substantial action, not the deal.  Otherwise, there could never be substantial action when head to head? The OOT player makes the first mistake...he or she should have waited for the "proper bettor" to act first. Once the dealer reacts prematurely the question that must be asked is...did the skipped player have enough time to stop the premature deal by speaking out, to defend his right to act? Or was it so quick that the skipped player didn't even have time to react?

 I believe there are rules that govern these situations that will never allow any player to pay for a card after they know it's identity. The river card can not stay, or the skipped player's hand is dead.

 I don't believe substantial action is possible when action is head to head...unless we incorporate the dealer into the mix.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2019, 06:03:31 PM by Nick C »

tommarsden

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Re: Substantial action on a premature river
« Reply #7 on: December 29, 2019, 02:09:17 PM »
The last player who didn't act didn't protect his right to act so the river card stands, and their hand is live and they will have their action on the river in turn. If there was a bet on the turn in this situation that players hand would be dead.

Ash

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Re: Substantial action on a premature river
« Reply #8 on: January 22, 2020, 04:11:44 PM »
update on this post

What would you do if the player who didn't speak was not the last? (let's say the one before him)

Dave Miller

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Re: Substantial action on a premature river
« Reply #9 on: January 22, 2020, 04:29:22 PM »
Ash -

That just means the skipped player had even MORE time to react and stop the action.

Therefore his hand is dead if there was a bet, or checked if no bet.
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown.
But how much does it cost to knock on wood?

Ash

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Re: Substantial action on a premature river
« Reply #10 on: January 23, 2020, 08:30:51 PM »
thank you Dave