Author Topic: Forward motion & go back with chips in hand  (Read 289 times)

pastor

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Forward motion & go back with chips in hand
« on: November 29, 2019, 07:56:31 PM »
What I mean?

In any game & table (with a line or not) player who made forward motion with a chips in hand (mixed or not) MUST MAKE action!
If hi/she go back & leave the cheaps unrecognizable, it means min. Bet or Call!!!

I hope it's clear

Nick C

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Re: Forward motion & go back with chips in hand
« Reply #1 on: December 01, 2019, 09:52:15 AM »
This is a great question. I looked through all of the rules on betting and raising in the TDA rules and all I could find was the act of "pushing out" chips when referring to betting or raising. I saw nothing that covered forward motion with chips in hand. I have my own ideas about the act of "forward motion" and that is one of the reasons I am in favor of a betting line. Crossing a line on the table layout seems to be a more definitive action than using a judgment call, or raising the question of whether a player advanced his or her chips far enough to prevent a retraction.
I gave you my feelings in my long-winded version about the unclear action of the player described. The TDA describes betting and raising by pushing out...there is no mention of the player who picks up chips, moves forward, (sometimes with two fists full of chips) only to release a single chip! How far can he or she advance without being liable to complete their action? That is an excellent question. I have experienced different house rules in many years of playing. I have to say that I was surprised by some forward motion and release rules that I've experienced.
 To answer your question with the limited knowledge of any other house rule that might pertain, I would have to consider that action as a call only. I'm not quite following your statement describing "go back & leave chips unrecognizable" but the deliberate forward motion with chips in hand indicates the deliberate intent to ack. A simple warning to all players before the game begins would be a good way to prevent future confusion. Example: "I'd like your attention please!" Make your intentions clear. When betting or raising, be sure to either announce the amount or push your complete bet forward in a single motion. If you pick up chips and advance them in a forward motion, you may be held liable to complete your unintended action!
Short answer...without verbal clarity or a release of the chips, I would force a call.

Dave Miller

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Re: Forward motion & go back with chips in hand
« Reply #2 on: December 02, 2019, 05:04:18 PM »
It is my understanding that this type of action would be a bet/raise for the full amount of whatever chips were in the players hand - even if the house rule allows bringing chips out, cutting a bet, and bringing the excess back.
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown.
But how much does it cost to knock on wood?

Nick C

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Re: Forward motion & go back with chips in hand
« Reply #3 on: December 02, 2019, 08:46:38 PM »
Dave...let me understand you. You are saying that you would allow a player to move forward with chips, cut and release the amount the player intends to bet and return with chips still in his or her hand. Okay, I'm not too happy about that but I've heard it before from a very respected tournament director.  However, there is nothing in the TDA rules that support that action. Perhaps it is something that should be addressed.

BillM16

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Re: Forward motion & go back with chips in hand
« Reply #4 on: December 02, 2019, 09:41:46 PM »
Robert's Rules of Poker Version 11, Section 14

#7. A wager is not binding until the chips are actually released into the pot, unless the player has made a verbal statement of action.

pastor

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Re: Forward motion & go back with chips in hand
« Reply #5 on: December 03, 2019, 07:50:24 AM »
OK guys, now I will give you some exsamples & I (we) want to hear, how you will be ruled this?
More or less I know PR with a bettig line!

1. THNL multy way after flop;
Ply.1 bet x
Ply.2 go with a chips inside a betting line & stop for second & watch to a players on his left.
Ply.3 Instand Fold (when he/she saw atention)
.
.
Ply.2 have to make action!
Q, What acton?
- in this case for me is a string bet & Ply.2 MUST make a call & nothing else. Ply.3,4,5..are not OOT!

2. The worst scenario in HU
Ply1. All-in
Ply2. go with a chips inside a betting line & stop for second
Ply1. showes the cards (thinking to be called)
Ply2. You are good, I will not pay!
 


Dave Miller

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Re: Forward motion & go back with chips in hand
« Reply #6 on: December 03, 2019, 08:51:12 AM »
Dave...let me understand you. You are saying that you would allow a player to move forward with chips, cut and release the amount the player intends to bet and return with chips still in his or her hand. Okay, I'm not too happy about that but I've heard it before from a very respected tournament director.  However, there is nothing in the TDA rules that support that action. Perhaps it is something that should be addressed.
Nick -
Yes. We allow cutting the bet forward of the cards/line and returning with the excess.  I donít like it, but thatís our rule.


Pastor -
Your examples have more to do with action out of turn than forward motion.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2019, 08:52:46 AM by Dave Miller »
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown.
But how much does it cost to knock on wood?

pastor

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Re: Forward motion & go back with chips in hand
« Reply #7 on: December 03, 2019, 11:09:55 AM »
Pastor -
Your examples have more to do with action out of turn than forward motion.

WHAT, will you rule that this play.2 will not be penalisd?
And how? 3 hands? For 3 hands I will "check & see the players" alweys  with a chips in a hand, forward & back?
 

Nick C

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Re: Forward motion & go back with chips in hand
« Reply #8 on: December 03, 2019, 04:55:07 PM »
Pastor...I'm sorry if I'm not understanding your question. Dave...I don't like that ruling either. Why would a player, or better yet, why would we allow any player to move forward with more chips than they intend to bet? I see no good answer. A verbal bet is easy enough or pushing forward the amount you want to bet also makes sense. Moving forward with two fists full of chips and then releasing a small portion into the betting area can only raise suspicion of bad intentions. I know it's out there, but I don't like it. I don't think Pastor likes it either.