Author Topic: #46 - Prior Bet Chips Not Pulled In & what does Overchip mean?  (Read 498 times)

BillM16

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#46 - Prior Bet Chips Not Pulled In & what does Overchip mean?
« on: October 29, 2019, 10:49:56 AM »
TDA 2019
RULE #46:  Prior Bet Chips Not Pulled In


B: If facing a raise, clearly pulling back a prior bet chip binds a player to call or raise; he or she may not put the chip(s) back out and fold.


If a player is facing a raise and they touch their prior bet chips to:
  • spread their prior bet chips so as to count them
  • cut their prior bet chips into countable stacks


... this should not be considered "clearly pulling back." Agreed?

« Last Edit: November 04, 2019, 09:40:23 PM by MikeB »

BillM16

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Re: #46 - Prior Bet Chips Not Pulled In
« Reply #1 on: October 29, 2019, 07:18:53 PM »
It's NLHE, SB 500, BB 1000, BBA 1000.  Alice, is the UTG player and raises to 2300.  Bob is UTG+1 and calls Alice's bet of 2300 with two 1000 chips and one 500 chip.  Everyone folds back around to the BB who the reraises to 5000.  Alice pulls the 2300 chips back and calls the 5000 bet with a single chip.  Bob finds that he has three 100 chips in is stack and decides to help the dealer by silently replacing the 500 chip of his prior bet not pulled in with the 3x100 chips and then mucks his cards..  The BB says: "Bob has to either call or raise."  Is the BB right?
« Last Edit: October 29, 2019, 07:23:59 PM by BillM16 »

MikeB

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Re: #46 - Prior Bet Chips Not Pulled In
« Reply #2 on: October 29, 2019, 08:43:09 PM »

... this should not be considered "clearly pulling back." Agreed?
Yes

MikeB

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Re: #46 - Prior Bet Chips Not Pulled In
« Reply #3 on: October 29, 2019, 08:49:13 PM »
It's NLHE, SB 500, BB 1000, BBA 1000.  Alice, is the UTG player and raises to 2300.  Bob is UTG+1 and calls Alice's bet of 2300 with two 1000 chips and one 500 chip.  Everyone folds back around to the BB who the reraises to 5000.  Alice pulls the 2300 chips back and calls the 5000 bet with a single chip.  Bob finds that he has three 100 chips in is stack and decides to help the dealer by silently replacing the 500 chip of his prior bet not pulled in with the 3x100 chips and then mucks his cards..  The BB says: "Bob has to either call or raise."  Is the BB right?
The referenced language is intended to address the situation where a player pulls back a prior-bet chip or chips, then hesitates while contemplating a bet, getting a read on other players, or just being dramatic... then tosses the chip(s) back and folds. In your example the action is continuous and sounds as though it would be "clear to the house" (lingo in section C) thus the fold would be acceptable IMO.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2019, 12:45:14 PM by MikeB »

BillM16

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Re: #46 - Prior Bet Chips Not Pulled In
« Reply #4 on: November 04, 2019, 09:47:45 AM »

  • SB posts 500
  • BB posts 1,000
  • UTG raises to 2,000
  • SB folds
  • BB raises to 5,000
  • UTG adds a single 5K chip silently without touching the prior bet chips

The UTG player is facing a total bet of 5,000 (a raise of 3,000).  Is his single 5K chip considered an overchip?  His chip is not multiple new chips.  But, the 5K chip plus the prior bet 2,000 is a total of 7,000, which is more than 50% of a full raise to 8,000.  So, should this be ruled a call or a raise?

In other words, do we define an overchip as:  A single chip that is larger than the amount of the bet.  Or, a single chip larger than the amount of the raise?

Steven

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Re: #46 - Prior Bet Chips Not Pulled In
« Reply #5 on: November 04, 2019, 08:04:23 PM »
Hi BillM16,

IMHO it is a CALL. Not sure why we even need the term overchip for this rule. I seem to remember it being called the single chip rule.

Found this in pokernews.com :

One Chip Rule

In live games, the “one chip rule” clarifies that any player placing a single chip forward without any accompanying verbal declaration after another player has bet is making a call and not a raise.

For example, in a no-limit hold’em game a player makes a bet of $8 after the flop, then another tosses out a $25 chip without saying anything. The second player’s bet is considered a call of the $8, not a raise to $25. The rule is also sometimes called the “oversize chip rule.”
« Last Edit: November 04, 2019, 08:06:19 PM by Steven »

BROOKS

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Re: #46 - Prior Bet Chips Not Pulled In
« Reply #6 on: November 04, 2019, 08:17:03 PM »

  • SB posts 500
  • BB posts 1,000
  • UTG raises to 2,000
  • SB folds
  • BB raises to 5,000
  • UTG adds a single 5K chip silently without touching the prior bet chips

The UTG player is facing a total bet of 5,000 (a raise of 3,000).  Is his single 5K chip considered an overchip?  His chip is not multiple new chips.  But, the 5K chip plus the prior bet 2,000 is a total of 7,000, which is more than 50% of a full raise to 8,000.  So, should this be ruled a call or a raise?

In other words, do we define an overchip as:  A single chip that is larger than the amount of the bet.  Or, a single chip larger than the amount of the raise?

This exact scenerio is covered in 46: prior bet chips not pulled in.

C: 1) If prior chips don't cover the call and are either left alone or fully pulled back, an overchip is a call.....

The prior 2000 didn't cover the call, the chips were left alone, an overchip was added. CALL

BillM16

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Re: #46 - Prior Bet Chips Not Pulled In
« Reply #7 on: November 04, 2019, 09:05:43 PM »
Ok, so what is the definition of “overchip?” Would you still rule it as a call if the BB made it 5,500?

Do we really mean “single” versus “multiple” chips?  To me, basing the rule on overchip and multiple chip creates a problem for a single underchip. Neither of which are defined.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2019, 09:23:30 PM by BillM16 »

MikeB

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Re: #46 - Prior Bet Chips Not Pulled In
« Reply #8 on: November 04, 2019, 09:23:45 PM »

  • SB posts 500
  • BB posts 1,000
  • UTG raises to 2,000
  • SB folds
  • BB raises to 5,000
  • UTG adds a single 5K chip silently without touching the prior bet chips

The UTG player is facing a total bet of 5,000 (a raise of 3,000).  Is his single 5K chip considered an overchip?  His chip is not multiple new chips.  But, the 5K chip plus the prior bet 2,000 is a total of 7,000, which is more than 50% of a full raise to 8,000.  So, should this be ruled a call or a raise?

In other words, do we define an overchip as:  A single chip that is larger than the amount of the bet.  Or, a single chip larger than the amount of the raise?

This exact scenerio is covered in 46: prior bet chips not pulled in.

C: 1) If prior chips don't cover the call and are either left alone or fully pulled back, an overchip is a call.....

The prior 2000 didn't cover the call, the chips were left alone, an overchip was added. CALL

Really appreciate everyone discussing this important topic. As to the first example, see Brooks' reply.

This leaves the other question of what "overchip" means. In general it refers to betting with a single chip where the value of the chip is greater than the minimum required action. In Rule 41 it is a single chip of value greater than the amount to call. In Rule 44 it is also defined as "a single oversized chip" put out "when facing a bet or blind". Since blinds, openers, and raises are all bets, it doesn't matter whether the player is facing a bet that is an opener or a raise, if a single chip greater than the amount to call is put out, it is an overchip.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2019, 01:13:48 PM by MikeB »

MikeB

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Re: #46 - Prior Bet Chips Not Pulled In
« Reply #9 on: November 04, 2019, 09:40:00 PM »
Ok, so what is the definition of “overchip?” Would you still rule it as a call if the BB made it 5,500?

Do we really mean “single” versus “multiple” chips?  To me, basing the rule on overchip and multiple chip creates a problem for a single underchip. Neither of which are defined.

There are de-facto definitions of overchip in Rule 41 and 44, do they need clarifying? Interesting topic for 2021.

As for the second example, as I understand it: UTG makes it 2000, BB raises to 5000 total, the UTG responds with multiple new chips (one 5000 and one 500), leaving a total of 7500 in front of him. Rule 46-C-1 says in this case the multiple-chip bet is handled by the 50% standard in Rule 43. SO: It's a 3000 raise to the UTG; if the UTG puts out at least 50% more than that silently in a multi-chip bet, it will be considered a raise by the UTG. 50% more would be a total bet of 6500 (5000 + 50% of 3000). Since the UTG put out 7500 total it is > 50% so he must make it a mandatory min-raise to 8000 total.

NOTE: There is a quirky variation of multiple-chips when ALL the new chips are needed to make the call, but that's not the case here (the 500 isn't needed) so that variation doesn't apply.

BillM16

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Re: #46 - Prior Bet Chips Not Pulled In & what does Overchip mean?
« Reply #10 on: November 05, 2019, 07:08:18 AM »
What if the BB raised to 5,500 and UTG put in 5K silently?  It is a single undersized chip.  Would this be treated the same as multiple chips?
« Last Edit: November 05, 2019, 09:10:09 AM by BillM16 »

MikeB

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Re: #46 - Prior Bet Chips Not Pulled In & what does Overchip mean?
« Reply #11 on: November 05, 2019, 12:37:34 PM »
What if the BB raised to 5,500 and UTG put in 5K silently?  It is a single undersized chip.  Would this be treated the same as multiple chips?

What is the entire scenario here? is it same as:
UTG has 2000 prior bet in front
BB raises to 5500 total (3500 raise to the UTG),
UTG puts out 5k more silently on top of the 2000 in front?

If that's your scenario, then it's a single overchip, the prior chip(s) weren't disturbed, so it's a call of 5500 by the UTG.

BillM16

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Re: #46 - Prior Bet Chips Not Pulled In & what does Overchip mean?
« Reply #12 on: November 06, 2019, 07:27:42 AM »
What if the BB raised to 5,500 and UTG put in 5K silently?  It is a single undersized chip.  Would this be treated the same as multiple chips?

What is the entire scenario here? is it same as:
UTG has 2000 prior bet in front
BB raises to 5500 total (3500 raise to the UTG),
UTG puts out 5k more silently on top of the 2000 in front?

If that's your scenario, then it's a single overchip, the prior chip(s) weren't disturbed, so it's a call of 5500 by the UTG.

Let's see if I have this right yet.

The UTG's single 5K chip is less than the 5,500 bet made by the BB.  Yet, it is considered an overchip as the amount to call is only 3,500 when we include the 2K that was prior bet chips not yet pulled in.  Given, it is a single new chip and that the prior chips were not disturbed, this is ruled a call, even though the total UTG chips now exceed 50% of a full raise.

Otherwise, had the UTG either disturbed the prior bet chips or put in five 1K chips, it would have been ruled 50% of a full raise and the total would have to become 9,000. (See Illustration, Situation 1: #3.)

(Interestingly, and merely a side note: If UTG+1 had also made a 2K prior call we could have a situation where UTG adds 5K and UTG+1 adds five 1K chips and UTG would be ruled a call and UTG+1 would be a ruled a raise.)




« Last Edit: November 06, 2019, 09:04:33 AM by BillM16 »

MikeB

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Re: #46 - Prior Bet Chips Not Pulled In & what does Overchip mean?
« Reply #13 on: November 06, 2019, 12:39:33 PM »
What if the BB raised to 5,500 and UTG put in 5K silently?  It is a single undersized chip.  Would this be treated the same as multiple chips?

What is the entire scenario here? is it same as:
UTG has 2000 prior bet in front
BB raises to 5500 total (3500 raise to the UTG),
UTG puts out 5k more silently on top of the 2000 in front?

If that's your scenario, then it's a single overchip, the prior chip(s) weren't disturbed, so it's a call of 5500 by the UTG.

Let's see if I have this right yet.

The UTG's single 5K chip is less than the 5,500 bet made by the BB.  Yet, it is considered an overchip as the amount to call is only 3,500 when we include the 2K that was prior bet chips not yet pulled in. 
Look at it this way: the BB raises to 5500, the UTG already has 2000 in front, SO it's 3500 more to call and the BB silently puts out 5k. When you respond to a bet with a single silent chip that's larger than the amount to call, it's a call.. Don't get into the trap of thinking "well the total bet is 5500 and the guy puts out 5000 so that's not enough". Instead, look at how much the action is to the player: here it's 3500 more and he puts out 5k.

Given, it is a single new chip and that the prior chips were not disturbed, this is ruled a call, even though the total UTG chips now exceed 50% of a full raise.
Right, for reasons above. Let's say I'm in a 1k-2k game in seat 6. Seat 3 opens for 4k, Seat 4 folds, Seat 5 makes it 10k and I silently put out a single 25k chip (an "overchip"). I've put out 150% of a full raise, but I've still just called.

Otherwise, had the UTG either disturbed the prior bet chips or put in five 1K chips, it would have been ruled 50% of a full raise and the total would have to become 9,000. (See Illustration, Situation 1: #3.)
Correct. 5k is added in both cases however with the single 5k the UTG is making a standard silent overchip call, he's not verbalizing OR "indicating with chips" that he wants to bet the entire 5k. With the five 1k chips he is absolutely making the point that all 5 chips are in play. Hence Rule 46-C-1, silent multiple new chips are subject to the 50% rule. As background all these scenarios were debated at length and agreed to at the 2017 Summit, case-by-case.
 
(Interestingly, and merely a side note: If UTG+1 had also made a 2K prior call we could have a situation where UTG adds 5K and UTG+1 adds five 1K chips and UTG would be ruled a call and UTG+1 would be a ruled a raise.)
Correct, again because in this example the UTG makes a silent overchip call and the UTG+1 makes a silent multiple-chip bet that's subject to the 50% raise threshold.

IMPORTANT TO NOTE ABOUT RULE 46:
The primary message is in Section A: verbalize your bet before putting out chips. Section C is used only if the bet is "unclear to the house". Players self-adjust prior bet chip amounts all the time, adding / changing the stack in front of them as betting proceeds around the table and it rarely causes a problem.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2019, 12:48:17 PM by MikeB »

BillM16

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Re: #46 - Prior Bet Chips Not Pulled In & what does Overchip mean?
« Reply #14 on: November 07, 2019, 07:12:33 AM »
Mike,

Thanks for taking the time to explain how this works.  While I understand the TDA Rule, I don't necessarily agree with it. 

My objection stems from the fact that the overchip terminology used in the other rules truly means one chip with a value that is more than the amount of the bet the player is facing (a.k.a, the call amount).  As used in Rule #46 the overchip term is a bit of a misnomer. To determine if the single chip is more than the bet the player is facing (to call) we must offset the value of the bet with the value of the prior bet chips to arrive a the call amount.  So, we first must determine that this it is not a multi-chip wager as we do NOT add the number of prior bet chips, but we do include the value of those very same chips in determining the call amount. Other TDA Rules do not have this complication as they pertain to a single action, where as Rule #46 pertains to prior and current actions.

In the Pacific Northwest, most house rules state "a single chip is always a call."  This overrules several TDA Rules and minimizes the complications by eliminating the need to determine whether or not the chip is undersized or oversized and also eliminates the need to include or exclude any prior bet chips.  The objections voiced at the TDA Summits regarding adoption of this house rule have not proved valid in my experiences.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2019, 07:23:09 AM by BillM16 »