Author Topic: Betting and folding cards to other players call without showing cards  (Read 132 times)

Buddymax

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Scenario
Several players at table, some have folded and play has gone to turn with 2 players left
Turn is tabled
Player A first to bet and bets on the turn.
Player B calls
River is dealt
Player A again is first to bet and bets on the river
Player B calls
This is not an all-in situation
Player A mucks cards without showing.
Player B does not show cards and takes pot.

Question Does play B have to show cards before taking pot as he called a Bet on the river,
but Player A mucked his cards without showing?  (cards are still accessible and Identifiable

In the above scenario my decision was that Player A has to table cards face up and then Player B tables his cards to show winning hand or folds to winning hand held by Player A.

Reasoning  for my decision - This will prevent collusion and the passing of chips to another player unopposed.

Supplementary question Does Player A have to table cards as well as Player B to show that Player B did in fact have a winning hand against Player A and also to prevent colluding?

Again reason for supplementary question to prevent collusion.

If my reasoning is correct,  great, and if it is, is it  covered by the following rule -17A?

If not? Would rule 17B:  Apply because Player A mucked intentionally.
Please note cards of Player A were retrievable and identifiable to 100% certainty.

Final Question Can any player at the table ask to have both hands tabled for clarification?

POKER TOURNAMENT DIRECTORS ASSN.
2019 Rules Version 1.0, Sept 17, 2019

17:  Non All-In Showdowns & Showdown Order
A: In a non all-in showdown, if cards are not spontaneously tabled or discarded, the TD may enforce an order of show. The last aggressive player on the final betting round (final street) must table first. If there was no final round bet, the player who would act first in a final betting round must table first (i.e. first seat left of the button in flop games, high hand showing in stud, low hand in razz, etc.).
B: A non all-in showdown is uncontested if all but one player mucks face down without tabling. The last player with live cards wins and is not required to table the cards.

MikeB

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Re: Betting and folding cards to other players call without showing cards
« Reply #1 on: October 30, 2019, 03:04:59 PM »

Is this situation covered by 17-A?

If not? Would rule 17B:  Apply because Player A mucked intentionally.
Please note cards of Player A were retrievable and identifiable to 100% certainty.

Final Question Can any player at the table ask to have both hands tabled for clarification?

POKER TOURNAMENT DIRECTORS ASSN.
2019 Rules Version 1.0, Sept 17, 2019

17:  Non All-In Showdowns & Showdown Order
A: In a non all-in showdown, if cards are not spontaneously tabled or discarded, the TD may enforce an order of show. The last aggressive player on the final betting round (final street) must table first. If there was no final round bet, the player who would act first in a final betting round must table first (i.e. first seat left of the button in flop games, high hand showing in stud, low hand in razz, etc.).
B: A non all-in showdown is uncontested if all but one player mucks face down without tabling. The last player with live cards wins and is not required to table the cards.

Rule 17-A does not apply because there's only one live player left. A has mucked, leaving the pot to B. 17-A only applies if both are in the hand and neither wants to be the first to show.

Rule 17-B applies in your example. A most likely tried to bluff on the river, was caught and preferred to muck his cards. B was the last player with live hands and is awarded the pot.

As for anyone asking to see the hand(s), B has the inalienable right to ask to see A's cards because he called A's river bet. If B asks and A has the better hand, A wins. No other player at the table has the inalienable right to see a hand if they weren't in for all bets on the river. However they can inform the TD they suspect collusion. How the TD responds to that concern is up to the TD.