Author Topic: HOW DO YOU RULE: Action Out of Turn Examples  (Read 292 times)

MikeB

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HOW DO YOU RULE: Action Out of Turn Examples
« on: August 21, 2019, 10:50:24 AM »
The TDA Action Out of Turn rule currently reads as follows:

Rule 44-A: Any action out of turn (check, call, or raise) will be backed up to the correct player in order. The OOT action is subject to penalty and is binding if action to the OOT player does not change.  A check, call or fold by the correct player does not change action. If action changes, the OOT action is not binding; any bet or raise is returned to the OOT player who has all options: call, raise, or fold. An OOT fold is binding. See Illustration Addendum.

Some questions have arisen, in keeping with the rule language, how do you rule in the following situations, all no-limit holdem 1000 / 2000 blinds, post-flop. 4 players A, B, C, and D

A: Player A opens for 2000
C: Player C acts out of turn, declares "six thousand"
B: Action backs up to B who declares "raise to 4500 total". (a 2500 increase over A's bet)
C: Action is back on C, what are his options?

A: Player A opens for 2000
C: Player C acts out of turn, declares "six thousand"
B: Action backs up to B who declares "all-in for 3900 total". (a 1900 increase over A's bet)
C: Action is back on C, what are his options?

A: Player A opens for 2000
C: Player C acts out of turn, declares "six thousand"
B: Action backs up to B who declares "all-in for 1900 total". (100 short of A's bet)
C: Action is back on C, what are his options?

A: Player A opens for 2000
D: Player D acts out of turn, declares "six thousand"
B: Action backs up to B who declares "all-in for 2500 total" (a 500 increase over A's bet)
C: Action on C who declares "all-in for 4400 total" (a 1900 increase over B's bet)
D: Action is back on D, what are his options?

A: Player A opens for 2000
C: Player C acts out of turn, declares "five thousand"
B: Action backs up to B who declares "all-in for 3900 total" (a 1900 increase over A's bet)
C: Action is back on C, what are his options?
« Last Edit: August 21, 2019, 12:33:52 PM by MikeB »

BillM16

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Re: HOW DO YOU RULE: Action Out of Turn Examples
« Reply #1 on: August 22, 2019, 12:54:21 PM »
The TDA Action Out of Turn rule currently reads as follows:

Rule 44-A: Any action out of turn (check, call, or raise) will be backed up to the correct player in order. The OOT action is subject to penalty and is binding if action to the OOT player does not change.  A check, call or fold by the correct player does not change action. If action changes, the OOT action is not binding; any bet or raise is returned to the OOT player who has all options: call, raise, or fold. An OOT fold is binding. See Illustration Addendum.

Some questions have arisen, in keeping with the rule language, how do you rule in the following situations, all no-limit holdem 1000 / 2000 blinds, post-flop. 4 players A, B, C, and D

A: Player A opens for 2000
C: Player C acts out of turn, declares "six thousand"
B: Action backs up to B who declares "raise to 4500 total". (a 2500 increase over A's bet)
C: Action is back on C, what are his options?

Action to C is no longer a bet of 2000.  Action changed and the OOT action is not binding; his raise is returned and he has all options.

A: Player A opens for 2000
C: Player C acts out of turn, declares "six thousand"
B: Action backs up to B who declares "all-in for 3900 total". (a 1900 increase over A's bet)
C: Action is back on C, what are his options?
Action to C is no longer a bet of 2000.  Action changed and the OOT action is not binding; his raise is returned and he has all options.

A: Player A opens for 2000
C: Player C acts out of turn, declares "six thousand"
B: Action backs up to B who declares "all-in for 1900 total". (100 short of A's bet)
C: Action is back on C, what are his options?
Action to C is still 2000.  Action did not change and the OOT action is binding.  Player C raises to 6000.

A: Player A opens for 2000
D: Player D acts out of turn, declares "six thousand"
B: Action backs up to B who declares "all-in for 2500 total" (a 500 increase over A's bet)
C: Action on C who declares "all-in for 4400 total" (a 1900 increase over B's bet)
D: Action is back on D, what are his options?
Action to D is no longer a bet of 2000.  Action changed and the OOT action is not binding; his raise is returned and he has all options.

A: Player A opens for 2000
C: Player C acts out of turn, declares "five thousand"
B: Action backs up to B who declares "all-in for 3900 total" (a 1900 increase over A's bet)
C: Action is back on C, what are his options?

Action to C is no longer a bet of 2000.  Action changed and the OOT action is not binding; his raise is returned and he has all options.


« Last Edit: August 22, 2019, 01:04:46 PM by BillM16 »

GreggPath

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Re: HOW DO YOU RULE: Action Out of Turn Examples
« Reply #2 on: August 22, 2019, 02:52:14 PM »
I agree with Bill for all examples. Pretty straight forward rulings in my opinion. Only one I have never considered is whether a short all-in changes action in respects to someone acting OOT (example 3), but it obviously does not change the action to player C so his OOT action is binding.

Nick C

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Re: HOW DO YOU RULE: Action Out of Turn Examples
« Reply #3 on: August 27, 2019, 06:14:37 AM »
This has been a problem to figure out, (for me anyway ;D) since the first time I saw it in writing. I like the idea of backing up the action to the proper player. Here is my suggestion. Instead of saying any action out of turn (check, call or fold) I'd rather see it defined by the only remaining action possible from the proper bettor. An act of aggression by initiating a bet, or raising. If the proper bettor goes all-in, his all-in must qualify as a raise in order to be considered as changing the action to the OOT.

 Forget the part about: "If the action to the OOT does not change." Define what that means by stating what action from the proper bettor would allow the OOT to either withdraw his or her wager.

 Anyway...that's the way I see it. At least I can better understand and explain the purpose of the rule. I do like the part of "the action to the OOT is subject to a penalty" because I know there are some who will find a way to use that rule to their advantage.

Max D

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Re: HOW DO YOU RULE: Action Out of Turn Examples
« Reply #4 on: August 28, 2019, 10:29:55 AM »
I agree with Bill'reasoning based on our current rules. 
Nick's thoughts are interesting as well, but either way the "penalty option" needs to stay in the wording for people abusing OOC betting.

Max D

BillM16

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Re: HOW DO YOU RULE: Action Out of Turn Examples
« Reply #5 on: September 01, 2019, 06:47:33 AM »
The TDA Action Out of Turn rule currently reads as follows:

Rule 44-A: Any action out of turn (check, call, or raise) will be backed up to the correct player in order. The OOT action is subject to penalty and is binding if action to the OOT player does not change.  A check, call or fold by the correct player does not change action. If action changes, the OOT action is not binding; any bet or raise is returned to the OOT player who has all options: call, raise, or fold. An OOT fold is binding. See Illustration Addendum.

Some questions have arisen, in keeping with the rule language, ...
(examples trimmed)


IMO, keeping with the rule language in part A of Rule #44 can be difficult due to confusion for a few reasons:

1) Any action out of turn (check, call, or raise) will be backed up to the correct player in order.

Parenthetical check, call, or raise modifying the phrase any action out of turn does not include either e.g. or i.e.  Consequently, we cannot be certain whether or not check, call, or raise are examples or a complete list of the any action out of turn

I believe the rule language means:

      All action out of turn will be backed up to the correct player in order.

If that is accurate, then there is no need to provide a complete list or an list of examples.

2) The OOT action is subject to penalty and is binding if action to the OOT player does not change.   A check, call or fold by the correct player does not change action.   If action changes, the OOT action is not binding; any bet or raise is returned to the OOT player who has all options: call, raise, or fold.   An OOT fold is binding.


Most of the confusion seems to stem from this part of the rule.  The reader is being told that when corrected action changes, it unbinds the OOT action.  The confusion comes from the need to subtract the listed non-changing actions (i.e., check, call, or fold) from all valid actions to determine changing actions.  A list of changing actions or all valid actions is not provided and is left as an exercise for the reader to solve.


I believe the rule language means:

      OOT folds are always binding.  OOT checks, calls, bets, and raises are binding only when all skipped players either check, call, or fold in their corrected action.  Otherwise, if a skipped player either bets or raises, the OOT action is not binding.  When the OOT action is not binding, any bet or raise will be returned to the OOT player who may then choose any corrected action in turn.

The above simply lists all of the non-changing actions (i.e. check, call, fold) that bind the OOT,  and the changing actions (i.e. bets, raises) that unbind the OOT.

Lastly, all action out of turn is subject to penalty, is an important matter that does not belong in the rule language that speaks to binding.  Instead, it belongs with the first matter:  All action out of turn is subject to penalty and will be backed up to the correct player in order.

p.s.  (When OOT action isn't binding, the OOT player is not limited to call, raise, or fold. Bet and check are also options.)
« Last Edit: September 01, 2019, 07:08:00 AM by BillM16 »

Nick C

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Re: HOW DO YOU RULE: Action Out of Turn Examples
« Reply #6 on: September 01, 2019, 04:13:29 PM »
Bill

If you read my reply #3 on this thread...that's what I said. Thanks for agreeing with me.

BillM16

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Re: HOW DO YOU RULE: Action Out of Turn Examples
« Reply #7 on: September 03, 2019, 07:36:39 PM »
Continuing with the questions that Mike submitted in the original post, here are a couple of scenarios that are controversial and occur frequently:

- Post flop.
B: Player B acts out of turn, declares "six thousand."
A: Play backs up to Player A who bets "six thousand."

Often, Player A is unaware of Rule 44A and expects Player B to be bound to a call.  A reasonable assumption without Rule 44A.  However, action has changed, so Player B now gets the six thousand back and has all options available. 

If Player B decides to raise, Player A is usually upset. Player A doesn't understand how Player B can now raise after Player A made what would amount to a call of Player B's OOT bet of six thousand.  Player A didn't "raise," how can Player B "raise?"  Player B might be angle shooting, especially if the OOT bet was a min bet.  In this scenario, Player B might either get Player A to fold to the min bet, or make a big re-raise if Player A makes a min bet, or Player B could fold and save the OOT min-bet, if Player A makes much larger bet.

If Player B decides to fold, Player A is usually upset.  In this scenario, Player A usually had the better hand and Player B was either bluffing or angle shooting.  Either way, Player B's OOT six thousand is refunded and Player A feels cheated. 

Some players and TDA members have expressed a need for a rule change that would require Player B to make the call when the corrected action is less than or equal to the OOT bet.
 
- Post flop.
B: Player B acts out of turn, declares "check."
A: Play backs up to Player A who bets "six thousand."
 
Often, Player A is unaware of Rule 44A and expects Player B to fold or perhaps call.  Instead, Player B decides to raise. 

In some sense, Player A is now facing a check raise!  A check raise is usually a sign of greater strength compared to a normal raise.  Player A might feel as if Player B was angle shooting.  How can Player B make a raise after making an OOT check? 

Some players and TDA members have expressed a need for a rule change that would limit Player B to either a "call or fold" when the OOT action was "check" and the change in action was a "bet or raise." 

Perhaps, to some degree, the current Rule #44-A wording compensates for the weaknesses expressed in these scenarios by saying "OOT actions are subject to penalty."  As a penalty, some floor people will not allow the OOT Player B all action options and might instead limit Player B's choices, as above.

« Last Edit: September 07, 2019, 07:27:57 AM by BillM16 »

Dave Miller

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Re: HOW DO YOU RULE: Action Out of Turn Examples
« Reply #8 on: September 04, 2019, 05:45:27 AM »
Bill -

I'm not sure what the point of your post is.

In both of your examples, Player B acted Out Of Turn, and Player A either didn't realize it was OOT, or didn't know the rules regarding OOT action.

Does anyone disagree with this? I think not.

Therefore, why do you label them as 'controversial'?
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Nick C

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Re: HOW DO YOU RULE: Action Out of Turn Examples
« Reply #9 on: September 06, 2019, 09:53:58 PM »
Bill, I agree with you 100%. I see no reason why the OOT player should be allowed any retraction of his OOT action. He is the guilty party...not the skipped player. Being passed over by a player acting out of turn seems a poor reason to put the "proper bettor" in a situation of confusion.

 I know there are many who either, don't like the rule or just don't understand it...like me.

MikeB

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Re: HOW DO YOU RULE: Action Out of Turn Examples
« Reply #10 on: September 10, 2019, 01:01:30 PM »
The TDA Action Out of Turn rule currently reads as follows:

Rule 44-A: Any action out of turn (check, call, or raise) will be backed up to the correct player in order. The OOT action is subject to penalty and is binding if action to the OOT player does not change.  A check, call or fold by the correct player does not change action. If action changes, the OOT action is not binding; any bet or raise is returned to the OOT player who has all options: call, raise, or fold. An OOT fold is binding. See Illustration Addendum.

Some questions have arisen, in keeping with the rule language, ...
(examples trimmed)


IMO, keeping with the rule language in part A of Rule #44 can be difficult due to confusion for a few reasons:

1) Any action out of turn (check, call, or raise) will be backed up to the correct player in order.

Parenthetical check, call, or raise modifying the phrase any action out of turn does not include either e.g. or i.e.  Consequently, we cannot be certain whether or not check, call, or raise are examples or a complete list of the any action out of turn

I believe the rule language means:

      All action out of turn will be backed up to the correct player in order.

If that is accurate, then there is no need to provide a complete list or an list of examples.

2) The OOT action is subject to penalty and is binding if action to the OOT player does not change.   A check, call or fold by the correct player does not change action.   If action changes, the OOT action is not binding; any bet or raise is returned to the OOT player who has all options: call, raise, or fold.   An OOT fold is binding.


Most of the confusion seems to stem from this part of the rule.  The reader is being told that when corrected action changes, it unbinds the OOT action.  The confusion comes from the need to subtract the listed non-changing actions (i.e., check, call, or fold) from all valid actions to determine changing actions.  A list of changing actions or all valid actions is not provided and is left as an exercise for the reader to solve.


I believe the rule language means:

      OOT folds are always binding.  OOT checks, calls, bets, and raises are binding only when all skipped players either check, call, or fold in their corrected action.  Otherwise, if a skipped player either bets or raises, the OOT action is not binding.  When the OOT action is not binding, any bet or raise will be returned to the OOT player who may then choose any corrected action in turn.

The above simply lists all of the non-changing actions (i.e. check, call, fold) that bind the OOT,  and the changing actions (i.e. bets, raises) that unbind the OOT.

Lastly, all action out of turn is subject to penalty, is an important matter that does not belong in the rule language that speaks to binding.  Instead, it belongs with the first matter:  All action out of turn is subject to penalty and will be backed up to the correct player in order.

p.s.  (When OOT action isn't binding, the OOT player is not limited to call, raise, or fold. Bet and check are also options.)
Nice re-working Bill. Will put this on the 2021 Summit agenda.