Author Topic: If opponent mucks at showdown, must winning hand be shown?. Re: TDA vs WSOP  (Read 30924 times)

AleaLeedsCardRoom

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Re: If opponent mucks at showdown, must winning hand be shown?. Re: TDA vs WSOP
« Reply #15 on: November 01, 2010, 02:52:14 PM »
RRoP The Showdown Rule 1:
To win any part of a pot, a player must show all of his cards faceup on the table [tabled],whether they were used in the final hand played or not.

SO in answer to the question, yes they must be shown

Nick C

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Re: If opponent mucks at showdown, must winning hand be shown?. Re: TDA vs WSOP
« Reply #16 on: November 01, 2010, 03:28:29 PM »
Sorry Max,
 I still believe that a checked hand is treated the same as a called hand and any player has a right to see the hand. Mike refers to a hand that is in the muck, to me that is not retrievable. The proper way to assure that players are entitled to see a hand that was intended for the muck, is for the dealer to stop it from hitting the muck. Players that fold or muck their hands, with force, or high velocity in the direction of the muck should be given a warning. I guess the question is, is a checked hand treated as, or considered a called hand in this situation? Maybe Mike knows the answer.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2010, 03:32:41 PM by Nick C »

NiclasG

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Re: If opponent mucks at showdown, must winning hand be shown?. Re: TDA vs WSOP
« Reply #17 on: November 02, 2010, 11:45:13 PM »
i have a question that relates to this:
Why do we force the players to show the hands when all players are All-in ?
is it because its exciting , or is it to prevent any form of collusion ?

Stuart Murray

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Re: If opponent mucks at showdown, must winning hand be shown?. Re: TDA vs WSOP
« Reply #18 on: November 03, 2010, 07:39:58 AM »
Hi Niclas,

yes it is to prevent chip dumping or other forms of collusion.  It would be extremely easy for players to dump chips off if all-in hands were not shown.

Regards
Stuart

NiclasG

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Re: If opponent mucks at showdown, must winning hand be shown?. Re: TDA vs WSOP
« Reply #19 on: November 03, 2010, 03:05:40 PM »
then it must be a show in these cases also IMO

MikeB

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Re: If opponent mucks at showdown, must winning hand be shown?. Re: TDA vs WSOP
« Reply #20 on: November 03, 2010, 03:42:45 PM »
i have a question that relates to this:
Why do we force the players to show the hands when all players are All-in ?
is it because its exciting , or is it to prevent any form of collusion ?

I would add that an All-In is a particularly "grave" circumstance because two important things are on the line: 1) The chips in the pot; but also 2) The all-in players "tournament life". We want to make absolutely sure that when a player's fate in the tournament is on the line that we get the correct reading of the hands, hence another reason to have cards up for an all-in showdown.

Nick C

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Re: If opponent mucks at showdown, must winning hand be shown?. Re: TDA vs WSOP
« Reply #21 on: February 24, 2011, 02:35:35 AM »
I was going over this old post and I noticed that I had a question that was unanswered. I thought that it was worth resurecting. On the final betting round, if all players check it is still considered a called hand. There was some disagreement. I feel that it is certainly an important subject that all TD's must understand. I hope that this time others will respond. A checked betting round is treated  the same as a round that bets were made and called at the showdown. The order of showdown will begin with the first player that checked.

chet

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Re: If opponent mucks at showdown, must winning hand be shown?. Re: TDA vs WSOP
« Reply #22 on: February 24, 2011, 08:36:03 AM »
The actual language from TDA Rule #11 is:  "...If there was no bet, the player to the left of the button shows first and so on clockwise...."

I think the normal effect is the same as what Nick said, "The order of showdown will begin with the first player that checked."  But if a player checks out of turn, then we start a whole new discussion. ::)

Nick C

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Re: If opponent mucks at showdown, must winning hand be shown?. Re: TDA vs WSOP
« Reply #23 on: February 24, 2011, 11:25:53 AM »
Thanks Chet,
 I guess I'll have to zero right in on the post I am refering to.

I will copy this from MaxH "I don't think this is a called hand because no one has bet."

 We need everyone to understand that a final betting round, that is checked around, is the same as when players called all bets on that round, if there were any. In other words; a checked round is the same as a round of betting. All players must check, in turn and showdown their cards according to the rules for that game. Chet is correct for all flop games. Stud would be the high hand or, the low hand in razz.



MaxH

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Re: If opponent mucks at showdown, must winning hand be shown?. Re: TDA vs WSOP
« Reply #24 on: February 24, 2011, 11:54:26 AM »

I will repost what I posted before.

'Nick,
You are getting the posts confused.
The Christine post is not the post I am commenting on.
Also, a checked hand is not a called hand: it's a checked hand.'

In the context you are talking about it is possible that a checked hand and a called hand are treated the same.
However,  a checked hand is different from a called hand otherwise (logic would dictate) they would have the same name.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2011, 01:29:25 PM by MaxH »
Max

Nick C

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Re: If opponent mucks at showdown, must winning hand be shown?. Re: TDA vs WSOP
« Reply #25 on: February 24, 2011, 02:56:37 PM »
Max,
 You lost me on that one. If all players check on the last betting round. We are ready for the showdown, right. Therefore any player has the right to see another players hand, just as if they had bet and were called. That is all I'm trying to clarify. If you don't understand it, let's talk it over. I'm all ears.

MaxH

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Re: If opponent mucks at showdown, must winning hand be shown?. Re: TDA vs WSOP
« Reply #26 on: February 25, 2011, 06:26:31 AM »
Nick,
The heading for this thread was about mucking at showdown and if a winning hand must be shown and it deviated into other issues not strictly related to the thread heading and we drifted off topic for a while.
I agreed that it was a player's right to see any hand but said the right should not be abused (meaning) in the case of losing hands being mucked - as often happens.
My reference for this is Robert's Rules 11.
The showdown
5. Any player who has been dealt in may request to see any hand that was eligible to participate in the showdown, even if the opponent's hand or the winning hand has been mucked. However, this is a privilege that may be revoked if abused.
So, your last post I agree with. All player's check on the last betting round and any player has the right to see the cards.
However, if cards have been mucked by players seeing a hand tabled that beats theirs (although a player retains the right to see them) I follow RRs and do not allow them to 'abuse' the right. 


« Last Edit: February 25, 2011, 07:10:55 AM by MaxH »
Max

Nick C

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I have had players abuse the right to see a called hand, but how each individual defines abuse leaves a lot of room for inconsistancy. Asking to see a hand in itself is not abuse (IMO). I have had an experience that has occurred on numerous occasions when a player is upset over getting beat, or outdrawn on the river by the same player. Out of frustration the player throws his cards into the muck, with force, before anyone has a chance to see the cards. The player that wanted to see the hand complains....so the next thing I know, the player that mucked his hand, and is still steaming over his bad beat, tells the dealer that "every time (what's his name) is in a called hand, I want to see his cards." This is abuse. Asking to see a called hand, that you have a right to see, is not.

Guillaume Gleize

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As long as no clear text is written about this (wich I would follow with respect) I'm gonna apply what is more logical & best interest of the game IN MY OWN OPINION:

When two players at showdown: as soon as a player refuse to compete for the pot while MUCKING his hand (and as soon as the dealer really muck it): he renounces to the right to see the opponent hand (wich is winning for being the last live hand and who is not obliged to show it anymore!)!

SO IMAGINE 2 EXEMPLES WITH 2 PLAYERS AT SHOWDOWN (player A was the last to bet at the river & player B called):

EXEMPLE 1
-Both pretend to the pot.
-No one want to show first.
-Player A has to show first.
-Player A do show is hand first.
-If loosing, player B is not obliged to show his hand.


EXEMPLE 2
-Both pretend to the pot.
-No one want to show first.
-Player A has to show first.
-Player A choose to muck his hand.
-Player B wins and is not obliged to show his hand.

GG

« Last Edit: March 04, 2011, 08:10:33 AM by Guillaume Gleize »

Nick C

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Guillaume,
 Your first example is accepted, and is probably the most common violation of any existing rule. Technically any player at the table may request to see the hand, but most of the time...no one cares. They are more interested in getting their next hand.

 Your second example is another common occurrance, however, I would insist that Player B show his hand. The biggest problem in this situation is the dealer allowing the discarded hand to hit the muck (just in case someone wants to see it). Your example B is what happens every time a player attempts to bluff, and gets caught. They were hoping that no one would call so they would not have to show their hand. When the opposing player calls, they realize that they can not win and want to muck as soon as possible. Like I said, most of the time no one cares what the players had, so it's usually not a problem.