Author Topic: All-in then mucked hand  (Read 11881 times)

Desi

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All-in then mucked hand
« on: March 05, 2011, 12:18:08 AM »
Two players get all their chips in on the turn, Player A shows first and shows the nut flush, Player B in seat 1 then throws his hand face down in the direction of the dealer and the muck.

#1 -  should the dealer turn that hand face up or treat it as a folded hand and muck it?
#2 -  if the dealer does muck the hand does he have to deal the river?
#3 - if the dealer turns the hand face up and deals the river, which then gives player B the winning hand how do you rule?

I will answer my own questions to see if Im thinking along the right lines :)

#1 - the hand should be treated as a folded hand and placed in the muck. It is the players to responsibility to turn his cards face up, in this case the player indicates a fold by throwing his cards face down.
#2 - I would stop the deal here with only one player now having cards, even if there has been an all-in and a call and we should be going to a showdown, but one player has 'surrendered' so there is no need to continue. If another player wishes to see Player B hand I would allow it, after it has been formally killed, except when Player A asks to see it then it would become live again and I guess we would now have to deal the river in this case?
#3 - I would rule player B hand dead here, although its probably technically not right to do so. But the dealer should not have turned the hand up, and the river should not have been dealt then. I dont think Player B should be allowed to win a pot where he was clearly not wanting to contest the pot anymore.






MikeB

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Re: All-in then mucked hand
« Reply #1 on: March 05, 2011, 12:27:35 AM »
Hi Desi: IMO, since you say "players get all their chips in"... each of these is an all-in situation with betting completed, that's really the only thing that matters, it drives the way each of these scenarios should proceed from that point....

....Per TDA rules, once a player is all-in and all betting action is concluded, hands should be turned up for a showdown. We want to do this for several reasons including: 1) More than just a pot is on the line, there's a "tournament life" on the line, and we must award the pot to the winning hand; 2) Collusion here would be particularly egregious because it would keep a player in the tourney that should be gone, to the detriment of the remaining players.

NOW, how exactly you go about getting both hands turned up is left undefined,

In answer to a similar thread somewhere, Dave Lamb put it simply "...like the rule says, cards will be turned up for an all-in showdown..."

....as TD since you're the keeper of the rules (and the warnings and the penalties), and the director of the tournament, obviously you have the wherewithal to see that the hands are turned up.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2011, 12:29:38 AM by MikeB »

Nick C

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Re: All-in then mucked hand
« Reply #2 on: March 05, 2011, 07:09:15 AM »
Desi,
 I would say that tournament rules dictate that the cards MUST be tabled. Mike is 100% correct when he says, and I quote; "NOW, how exactly you go about getting both hands turned up is left undefined"....The issue is; who turns over the cards? The way I see it, in the situation that Desi describes, the dealer should stop the cards from hitting the muck and call the floor. The dealer is not allowed to turn over the cards (under current rules),.....so, if I were called to the table for a rulling, I would either turn the cards over myself or, better yet, instruct the dealer to do so. IMO, this is a easy one to fix, if we just make a rule that insists that the dealer MUST table the hand, (in this situation only) per TDA rule #9. Problem solved.


WSOPMcGee

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Re: All-in then mucked hand
« Reply #3 on: March 05, 2011, 07:16:45 PM »
IMO, this is a easy one to fix, if we just make a rule that insists that the dealer MUST table the hand, (in this situation only) per TDA rule #9. Problem solved.

Can't speak for any other tournaments, just the ones I've worked with. For both WPT and WSOP events, dealers are instructed to turn the cards over. No need to call the floor. EPT I don't recall the instruction. But I believe it is the same.

I don't think the rule went so far as to define who should be the one who is allowed to turn over the cards because it's clearly states that all hands are turned face up. Period. End of story. Before any further cards are dealt (Which it doesn't say that either, it's just assumed).

The rules were originally written to be easy reads, which is often left up to the interpretation of the reader. Now that people are learning the rules, the want to know "why" it's in place and need more definitive answers and rationale. In some of the proposed rewrites even JasperToo seemed cautious or even less than enthusiastic for more verbose wordage. That's probably something I'll be adding to the R.O.P.E. this year, video explanations of why you do it this way vs that way, even though they both ways seem serviceable.

To the question at hand, Desi, in 3 cases the answer is YES.

#1 - YES the dealer should turn up the hand. That player is all-in or has called another player who is all-in .

#2 - YES you would deal the river. Even if the cards are mucked and unidentifiable, the Player should be  afforded the opportunity at a chopped pot where the board plays. Some will disagree with me on this. But the fact remains, the cards should've been tabled to begin with and if not tabled by the player, then the dealer should have tabled them and a dealer can not kill a tabled hand. Even though you don't know which two cards the player held in their hand, you do know, that it was two cards, by a simple countdown of the deck.

#3 - YES the player has a winning hand.

Bottom line in an all-in situation or any showdown, you want the winning hand to be awarded the pot.
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Nick C

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Re: All-in then mucked hand
« Reply #4 on: March 05, 2011, 08:40:07 PM »
Thomas,
 I can agree with the solution where the dealer simply turns the cards over, however I have never seen it in writing. Where is the rule that says the dealer should turn over the cards? That is against what every dealer is taught. This is one catagory that is as different as day and night when comparing cash games with tournaments. I don't agree with turning any mucked hand over because in a tournament the discard pile (muck) should be isolated to prevent any called hand from touching the muck. The hand must be tabled at the showdown. Either make a rule that designates that the dealer must turn over the cards or, allow players to muck whenever they want. One or the other.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2011, 08:39:54 AM by Nick C »

Dave Lamb

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Re: All-in then mucked hand
« Reply #5 on: March 06, 2011, 03:15:13 PM »
We have a clearly written rule #9 for tournaments that states, " All cards will be turned face up once a player is all-in and all betting action is complete". I have no problem with individual TD's deciding whether they wish to allow the dealer to do it, or call the floorperson, or insist that the player turn them over, etc. The cards just need to be turned up...

chet

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Re: All-in then mucked hand
« Reply #6 on: March 06, 2011, 03:41:04 PM »
Nick:  

In My Not So Humble Opinion, one of the dealers main responsibilities is to ensure the tournament rules are followed.  If the event is using TDA rules and a player is involved with a situation to which TDA Rule 9 applies and fails or refuses to turn his/her hole cards face-up, I contend it is the dealers responsibility to do so.

A couple of posts ago you said, "The dealer is not allowed to turn over the cards (under current rules)..."  Would you please be so kind as to point out to me what rule you are referring to.  I am not aware of any such rule.

Finally, I very well may give that player a warning and/or a penalty for 1) failing to follow TDA Rule 9, and/or deliberately delaying the game (TDA Rule 44).

I see nothing wrong with the way Rule 9 is written as is.  It is perfectly clear IMNSHO!

Chet
« Last Edit: March 06, 2011, 03:44:53 PM by chet »

Nick C

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Re: All-in then mucked hand
« Reply #7 on: March 06, 2011, 03:57:32 PM »
Chet,
 Perhaps it is Poker Dealing 101. I'm sure I'll be able to find something under the category of procedures as opposed to a rule. If tournament play insists on the cards being tabled and the owner of the hand refuses to do so, then make it mandatory that the dealer must. That's all I'm trying to say. I agree with Dave 100%. I think it's an easy fix that will save a lot of headaches for TD's, dealers, and players. Let's not forget, this is necessary because some players insist on not playing by the rules.

 There are many procedures that are listed under Conduct, House Policy,and Etiquette that are not defined by a specific rule, yet they are comon knowledge to anyone that plays the game.
  This is good because for the first time we have three of us (at least) that agree the dealer should turn the "improperly" mucked hand at the showdown.

Nick C

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Re: All-in then mucked hand
« Reply #8 on: March 07, 2011, 12:12:29 AM »
Thomas and Chet,
 2010 WSOP Dealer Reference Guide: GENERAL DEALING PROCEDURES......SHOWDOWN (IN PART)

THE DEALER IS NOT PERMITTED TO TURN A PLAYER'S CARDS UP FOR THEM

IN TOURNAMENT ANY PLAYER AT THE TABLE MAY REQUEST TO SEE A CALLED HAND. THE DEALER SHOULD TAKE THE HAND, TAP IT ON TOP OF THE MUCK TO OFFICIALLY "KILL" IT AND THEN TURN IT FACE UP ON THE TABLE.

Desi

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Re: All-in then mucked hand
« Reply #9 on: March 07, 2011, 01:15:16 AM »
The way I saw it was that all hands must be turned face up once a player is all-in and betting is complete (assuming there are still cards to come all hands must be turned face up? )
But if a player decides to muck his hand is there no way he is allowed to do so?
Because another example would be if the action was on the river, Player A bets all-in and Player B calls, Player A shows the nuts and Player B mucks. We allow Player B to muck here, unless someone asks to see the hand.
 For talks sake if again we are on the river, and somehow a player is all-in and gets 4 callers, must all 5 hands be shown here? Or is the player who believes they have the best hand not expected to show first in order to speed up play?

Nick C

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Re: All-in then mucked hand
« Reply #10 on: March 07, 2011, 02:22:19 PM »
Desi,
 If you go by the rules that currently exist for tournaments, then I would say that the dealer should not turn the cards over. I don't want to keep repeating what I've already written. I think that Rule #9 needs some rewording because it contradicts the order of showdown when there are multiple players in the hand and one or more players are all in. It's perfect for head to head when a player is all in and there is no more betting. That is what we are talking about. The example that you give about the action being on the river is perfect, and in my opinion, is such a regular occurrance that most of the time players "let that rule slide," so we can get on with the next hand. You are also correct when you mention how it could slow down a game. I think the issue here is when someone complains that a player intentionally attempts to muck a hand when they shouldn't. Remember, if the player turned their hand over the way they are supposed to, we would not be having this discussion. I think we would accept a rule that would make the dealer the responsible person to table the called hand.

 Chet and Thomas,
 If the rules that I listed above are not enough, I have more. THE PROFESSIONAL POKER DEALER'S HANDBOOK:
Under Sequence of events; (in part) Dealers, read any hand as soon as it's shown, but do not attempt to read a hand until the player turns up all his cards, and never turn up any players cards on your own. Another section under Dealer Information: "One player to a hand rule" dictates that they should be turned up by that player. Anyone other than the hand's owner who turns up a card is helping that player to play his hand. It's bad enough when another player does this, but it's unforgivable if the dealer does it.

 Desi, There is a specific order of showdown and it is generally accepted when a player that has a strong hand announces his hand before he has to. The rule is for players that want to see the opponents hand first, and neither player wants to show their hand. This is when the dealer will ask the player that initiated the last bet or raise to show down first. If the round was checked, in a flop game, first to show is the first player clockwise to the button. In stud, it's the high hand, except in razz, then it's the low hand.

WSOPMcGee

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Re: All-in then mucked hand
« Reply #11 on: March 08, 2011, 10:43:17 AM »
Thomas and Chet,
 2010 WSOP Dealer Reference Guide: GENERAL DEALING PROCEDURES......SHOWDOWN (IN PART)

THE DEALER IS NOT PERMITTED TO TURN A PLAYER'S CARDS UP FOR THEM

IN TOURNAMENT ANY PLAYER AT THE TABLE MAY REQUEST TO SEE A CALLED HAND. THE DEALER SHOULD TAKE THE HAND, TAP IT ON TOP OF THE MUCK TO OFFICIALLY "KILL" IT AND THEN TURN IT FACE UP ON THE TABLE.

The emphasis here is the very headline: GENERAL DEALING PROCEDURES. In general, the dealers are not to turn the cards over during a showdown. UNLESS, and I reference TDA RULE #9 which the WSOP does include in its rules, that ALL HANDS MUST BE TURNED UP, when a player is all-in and there is no more betting action. It doesn't say WHO must turn them over because it's a must, whether it be the player, a floor supervisor or the dealer.

Keep in mind that this is a guide book and not dealer rule book. It has guidelines. It doesn't mean they are inflexible. Sometimes a player will ask the dealer to turn their cards over. Maybe they're eating food and have grease on their fingers. Maybe they spilled their drink all over the table in their excitement of winning the hand. Maybe they have limited mobility and can only move their hand a few inches in any direction. There's lots of maybe's.

The point is...... even the TDA Rules are just guidelines for others to incorporate in the hope that one day tournament rules (NOT HOUSE RULES, although that would be wonderful too) will be the same throughout the industry. I know of NO casino, except for maybe Commerce because Matt is the TD there, that follow the TDA Rules to the letter. I've asked Matt about this before and I'm sure Dave can testify, that each House believes that they are the center of the poker universe and do things the "correct" way and everyone else does things incorrectly. To the extent that it took nearly 10 yrs just to get a relatively small group of people to agree upon what was to become the first set of TDA Rules.

I know you want all these things in writing for TDA Rules but that's not what the purpose of the rules are. They are guidelines for GENERAL PROCEDURES to be used in a poker tournament. They don't cover game rules or the multitude of dealing procedures or floor decisions. With the exception of dealing procedures, an attempt to cover these issues was the reason for the creation of the R.O.P.E. Dealing procedures is a whole book unto itself and some very good ones have been written on the subject. 
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WSOPMcGee

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Re: All-in then mucked hand
« Reply #12 on: March 08, 2011, 11:01:40 AM »
The way I saw it was that all hands must be turned face up once a player is all-in and betting is complete (assuming there are still cards to come all hands must be turned face up? )
But if a player decides to muck his hand is there no way he is allowed to do so?

Without trying to confuse the issue further, as far WSOP, WPT, and EPT are concerned, if the player is all in and there is no further betting action, then NO they are not allowed to muck their hand.
Quote
Because another example would be if the action was on the river, Player A bets all-in and Player B calls, Player A shows the nuts and Player B mucks. We allow Player B to muck here, unless someone asks to see the hand.

In general I would say that this is a normal occurrence. It is preferred that the hands get turned face up because you don't want Player B dumping their chips to Player A by calling them to river with 3 high, no pair, no straight, no flush, knowing that most likely no one will ask to see their hand because Player A is showing the nuts. In this instance you do it to prevent chip dumping.
Quote
For talks sake if again we are on the river, and somehow a player is all-in and gets 4 callers, must all 5 hands be shown here? Or is the player who believes they have the best hand not expected to show first in order to speed up play?

Yes all 5 hands should be shown. Even in cases where there is a side pot that the all-in player can not win. With so many multiple hands, in this instance you do it not only to prevent chip dumping, you do it for the additional reasons of game integrity (making sure there's no duplicate cards) but also to protect the other players from miss reading their hand and folding the best hand, which would allow an all-in player an opportunity to continue in the tournament when they should be out.
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Nick C

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Re: All-in then mucked hand
« Reply #13 on: March 08, 2011, 01:11:38 PM »
Thomas,
 How can you say that; The emphasis here is the very headline: GENERAL DEALING PROCEDURES. In general, the dealers are not to turn the cards over during a showdown. UNLESS, and I reference TDA RULE #9 which the WSOP does include in its rules, that ALL HANDS MUST BE TURNED UP, when a player is all-in and there is no more betting action. It doesn't say WHO must turn them over (THIS IS THE ISSUE) because it's a must, whether it be the player, a floor supervisor or the dealer. (THE LAST LINE YOU WROTE, ARE YOUR WORDS, NOT A RULE). Let's stop assuming who should do what. Your wrong on this one, and until someone makes it a rule, it is wrong for a dealer to turn over a players hand at the showdown.
Here is another Quote:
Because another example would be if the action was on the river, Player A bets all-in and Player B calls, Player A shows the nuts and Player B mucks. We allow Player B to muck here, unless someone asks to see the hand.

Your response:
In general I would say that this is a normal occurrence. It is preferred that the hands get turned face up because you don't want Player B dumping their chips to Player A by calling them to river with 3 high, no pair, no straight, no flush, knowing that most likely no one will ask to see their hand because Player A is showing the nuts. In this instance you do it to prevent chip dumping.

The problem would be if the player with the nut hand folded...that would be a bigger problem, don't you think? How does a player showing a weak hand and mucking prove anything? Did you ever bluff with nothing?


WSOPMcGee

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Re: All-in then mucked hand
« Reply #14 on: March 08, 2011, 11:19:48 PM »
Thomas,
 How can you say that; The emphasis here is the very headline: GENERAL DEALING PROCEDURES. In general, the dealers are not to turn the cards over during a showdown. UNLESS, and I reference TDA RULE #9 which the WSOP does include in its rules, that ALL HANDS MUST BE TURNED UP, when a player is all-in and there is no more betting action. It doesn't say WHO must turn them over (THIS IS THE ISSUE) because it's a must, whether it be the player, a floor supervisor or the dealer. (THE LAST LINE YOU WROTE, ARE YOUR WORDS, NOT A RULE). Let's stop assuming who should do what. Your wrong on this one, and until someone makes it a rule, it is wrong for a dealer to turn over a players hand at the showdown.

Not in an all-in situation.
Quote
Here is another Quote:
Because another example would be if the action was on the river, Player A bets all-in and Player B calls, Player A shows the nuts and Player B mucks. We allow Player B to muck here, unless someone asks to see the hand.

Your response:
In general I would say that this is a normal occurrence. It is preferred that the hands get turned face up because you don't want Player B dumping their chips to Player A by calling them to river with 3 high, no pair, no straight, no flush, knowing that most likely no one will ask to see their hand because Player A is showing the nuts. In this instance you do it to prevent chip dumping.

The problem would be if the player with the nut hand folded...that would be a bigger problem, don't you think? How does a player showing a weak hand and mucking prove anything? Did you ever bluff with nothing?

In the scenario, the player with the weak hand is not bluffing. They are calling and mucking. If you allow Player B to muck then you are allowing possible chip dumping to take place.

You're suggestion that if Player A (the bettor) folded and is holding the superior hand, is also a problem. But that is not the question being asked in the scenario.
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