Author Topic: Surveillance review in tournament?  (Read 3883 times)

Brian Vickers

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Surveillance review in tournament?
« on: March 07, 2011, 03:07:14 AM »
How do you handle a situation in a tournament that would normally call for a surveillance review in a cash game? 

For instance, the cards were tabled, the dealer awards the pot, mucks the hands and board, then it is brought up that the other player made a flush (or some other winning hand).  In this example the cards are not identifiable because they have been thoroughly mucked, but the next hand hasn't started (green button pressed/first riffle). 
What do you do if you can't reconstruct the board, but the player disputes it in the allotted time?  In a cash game I would rack up the pot until surveillance reviewed the hand, then award the pot to the correct winner.  This seems impractical/impossible in a tournament, you'd have to stop all play until the review was finished.  What is the proper solution for such disputes as a TD?

Nick C

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Re: Surveillance review in tournament?
« Reply #1 on: March 07, 2011, 02:26:06 PM »
Brian,
 That's a good one. I agree with what you say for a cash game but, I'm going to sit back and listen on this one. My guess is a decision has to be made more quickly in a tournament. Good one, for sure.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2011, 06:19:55 PM by Nick C »

JasperToo

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Re: Surveillance review in tournament?
« Reply #2 on: March 07, 2011, 04:07:14 PM »
I think Nick is right.  A decision has to be made right then and there.  If you try and keep the disputed pot off to the side the next hand could be a deal breaker for that either player. 

Seems to me that the TD is stuck making a best guess.  But how would you decide?  A majority of the players agree that the pot was incorrectly awarded?  Or simply say "can't reconstruct so it's done"? 

Definitely a tough call at that spot.  Sitting back with the others to see what to do...

chet

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Re: Surveillance review in tournament?
« Reply #3 on: March 07, 2011, 04:41:11 PM »
1.  You have already concluded that the exact hands/board cannot be reconstructed, so we will concede that point.

2.  Next I would go to TDA Rule 10, to see if a majority of the players, whether in the hand or not, agree the pot was awarded incorrectly and, if so, to which player the pot should be awarded.

3.  Note that I did not say in #2 if the players agreed on the construction of the winning hand.

4.  If I did not get a majority in step 2, then I would have to weigh what the players who said there was a different winning hand against those that a) were not paying attention, and/or b) those that don't agree there was a different winning hand.  If there were more players who agreed to whom the pot should be awarded than there were those against, I would rule the pot goes to the tabled winning hand even though the hand could not be reconstructed. 

If the alleged winning hand cannot be identified and if the players cannot agree the pot was awarded incorrectly, then I submit the pot has to stand as awarded.  In order to make the change, you have to have some level of evidence/confidence not only that an error was made, but what the correct decision should be.

Remember, in most small tournaments, whether in poker leagues, bars or whatever, it is highly UNLIKELY there are any cameras to record the action anyway.

Hope this helps!!

Stuart Murray

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Re: Surveillance review in tournament?
« Reply #4 on: March 07, 2011, 05:40:11 PM »
yip, ditto Chet's response, Mostly in these kind of situations I goto the whole table for their input, which they are often reluctant to give, they will even know exactly what happened, but will not get involved, it's like getting blood out of a stone sometimes! you just have to get as much information as you can and make a decision.  I did stop play one one table once, and they then played on in to the break to make up the time missed, but usually you will have to make a good decision with as much information as you can gather in as quick an amount of time as possible.

Stuart