Author Topic: Position of the blinds  (Read 203 times)

Guillaume Gleize

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Position of the blinds
« on: March 06, 2019, 05:51:40 AM »
Hello partners!

Here is my simple case & question:

Sit 1 Dealer Button
Sit 2 Small Blind
Sit 3 Nobody
Sit 4 Nobody
Sit 5 Big Blind
Sit 6 UTG etc ...

During the hand the Sit 5 is eliminated
Before the next hand starts, 2 players coming from a closing table are placed in Sit 3 and 4

Where do you place the blinds please?
(for me it was obvious but it seems to have different habits around here)

BillM16

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Re: Position of the blinds
« Reply #1 on: March 06, 2019, 07:08:52 AM »
Bonjour Guillaume,

It is nice to hear from you.  Here is the relevant rule.


TDA Rule #9: Breaking Tables

Players from a broken table will be assigned new tables and seats by a 2-step random process. They can get any seat including small or big blind or the button and be dealt in except between the SB and button. See Illustration Addendum.


Accordingly, seat #3 and #4 will become SB and BB respectively.  Seat #2 is the dealer button.  Seat #6 becomes the BB on the next hand.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2019, 07:11:20 AM by BillM16 »

Guillaume Gleize

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Re: Position of the blinds
« Reply #2 on: March 06, 2019, 08:59:31 AM »
OKTY!

To be very honest I was wrong so: Making #2 the Dealer like you for sure but no SB and #6 BB with the new players at #3 and #4 not playing this hand.
The next dealer button would have been #4 with #6 SB and #7 BB ...

OK so I will change my method unless a majority of answers go against you lol!

Merci beaucoup  Bill!
« Last Edit: March 07, 2019, 04:51:22 AM by Guillaume Gleize »

BROOKS

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Re: Position of the blinds
« Reply #3 on: March 09, 2019, 05:22:55 PM »
Guillaume Gleize you were correct...
Bill is mistaken.

The SB always goes where the BB was the last hand.
Seats 3 and 4 will be in between the button and the SB and therefore cannot play that hand.
Button always moves to where the SB was.
SB is always wherever the BB just was.
Players arriving from a broken table will "assume the position" if they are assigned a seat where there is a dead button or dead small blind - and they will be the button or the SB.
In this case, seats 3 and 4 are neither dead button or dead sb, they are in-between.
Since seat 2 was SB it will be button next hand.
Since seat 5 was BB, it will be SB next hand
Seats 3 and 4 will have to wait until the button passes to be dealt in.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2019, 05:25:37 PM by BROOKS »

BillM16

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Re: Position of the blinds
« Reply #4 on: March 10, 2019, 04:44:15 PM »
Guillaume Gleize you were correct...
Bill is mistaken.

The SB always goes where the BB was the last hand.
Seats 3 and 4 will be in between the button and the SB and therefore cannot play that hand.
Button always moves to where the SB was.
SB is always wherever the BB just was.
Players arriving from a broken table will "assume the position" if they are assigned a seat where there is a dead button or dead small blind - and they will be the button or the SB.
In this case, seats 3 and 4 are neither dead button or dead sb, they are in-between.
Since seat 2 was SB it will be button next hand.
Since seat 5 was BB, it will be SB next hand
Seats 3 and 4 will have to wait until the button passes to be dealt in.

Interesting concept Brooks.  In your opinion, the SB always goes to where the BB was last.  Will you please provide us the written rules that support that notion?

According to the following authorities, it is the button that is required to move clockwise one seat at a time. 
Then. the blinds are posted immediately to the left of the button.  In Guilliaume's scenario, the button must move to seat #2 and the blinds must be posted by players that were moved to the left of the button.  The player moved to seat #3 is the SB and the player moved to seat #4 is the BB.

Here are my references:


TDA 2017 Rules

9:  Breaking Tables
Players from a broken table will be assigned new tables and seats by a 2-step random process. They can get any seat including small or big blind or the button and be dealt in except between the SB and button. See Illustration Addendum.

32:  Dead Button
Tournament play will use a dead button.



Robert's Rules of Poker v11

SECTION 4 - BUTTON AND BLIND USE

In button games, a non-playing dealer normally does the actual dealing. A round disk called the button is used to indicate which player has the dealer position. The player with the button is last to receive cards on the initial deal and has the right of last action on all but the first betting round. The button moves one seat clockwise after a deal ends to rotate the advantage of last action. One or more blind bets are usually used to stimulate action and initiate play. Blinds are posted before the players look at their cards. Blinds are part of a player’s bet (unless a certain structure or situation specifies otherwise). A blind other than the big blind may be treated as dead (not part of the poster’s bet) in some structures, as when a special additional "dead blind" for the collection is specified by a cardroom. With two blinds, the small blind is posted by the first player clockwise from the button and the big blind is posted by the second player clockwise from the button. With more than two blinds, the smallest blind is normally left of the button (not on it). On the initial betting round, action starts with the first player to the left of the blinds. On all subsequent betting rounds, the action starts with the first active player to the left of the button.

RULES FOR USING BLINDS
2.   Each round every player must get an opportunity for the button, and meet the total amount of the blind obligations. Either of the following methods of button and blind placement may be designated to do this:
(a) Moving button – The button always moves forward to the next player and the blinds adjust accordingly. There may be more than one big blind.
(b) Dead button – The big blind is posted by the player due for it, and the small blind and button are positioned accordingly, even if this means the small blind or the button is placed in front of an empty seat, giving the same player the privilege of last action on consecutive hands. [See “Section 16 – Explanations,” discussion #1, for more information on this rule.]


I think my position is supported quite clearly and is not mistaken as you say.  The button always moves one seat to the left on each new hand and then the blinds are then posted to the left of the button seat.  The TDA Rules require the use of the Dead Button method.  This means that both the button and/or the SB may be placed in an empty seat.  The Dead Button method requires the BB to be placed in the next seat that is actually occupied by a player.

I can find no rules that support your position and I do not see where I've misinterpreted the above rules.  But, I still find your concept interesting. 


« Last Edit: March 12, 2019, 07:34:27 AM by BillM16 »

Guillaume Gleize

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Re: Position of the blinds
« Reply #5 on: March 13, 2019, 03:44:52 PM »
Guillaume Gleize you were correct...
Bill is mistaken.

The SB always goes where the BB was the last hand.
Seats 3 and 4 will be in between the button and the SB and therefore cannot play that hand.
Button always moves to where the SB was.
SB is always wherever the BB just was.
Players arriving from a broken table will "assume the position" if they are assigned a seat where there is a dead button or dead small blind - and they will be the button or the SB.
In this case, seats 3 and 4 are neither dead button or dead sb, they are in-between.
Since seat 2 was SB it will be button next hand.
Since seat 5 was BB, it will be SB next hand
Seats 3 and 4 will have to wait until the button passes to be dealt in.

Interesting concept Brooks.  In your opinion, the SB always goes to where the BB was last.  Will you please provide us the written rules that support that notion?

According to the following authorities, it is the button that is required to move clockwise one seat at a time. 
Then. the blinds are posted immediately to the left of the button.  In Guilliaume's scenario, the button must move to seat #2 and the blinds must be posted by players that were moved to the left of the button.  The player moved to seat #3 is the SB and the player moved to seat #4 is the BB.

Here are my references:


TDA 2017 Rules

9:  Breaking Tables
Players from a broken table will be assigned new tables and seats by a 2-step random process. They can get any seat including small or big blind or the button and be dealt in except between the SB and button. See Illustration Addendum.

32:  Dead Button
Tournament play will use a dead button.



Robert's Rules of Poker v11

SECTION 4 - BUTTON AND BLIND USE

In button games, a non-playing dealer normally does the actual dealing. A round disk called the button is used to indicate which player has the dealer position. The player with the button is last to receive cards on the initial deal and has the right of last action on all but the first betting round. The button moves one seat clockwise after a deal ends to rotate the advantage of last action. One or more blind bets are usually used to stimulate action and initiate play. Blinds are posted before the players look at their cards. Blinds are part of a player’s bet (unless a certain structure or situation specifies otherwise). A blind other than the big blind may be treated as dead (not part of the poster’s bet) in some structures, as when a special additional "dead blind" for the collection is specified by a cardroom. With two blinds, the small blind is posted by the first player clockwise from the button and the big blind is posted by the second player clockwise from the button. With more than two blinds, the smallest blind is normally left of the button (not on it). On the initial betting round, action starts with the first player to the left of the blinds. On all subsequent betting rounds, the action starts with the first active player to the left of the button.

RULES FOR USING BLINDS
2.   Each round every player must get an opportunity for the button, and meet the total amount of the blind obligations. Either of the following methods of button and blind placement may be designated to do this:
(a) Moving button – The button always moves forward to the next player and the blinds adjust accordingly. There may be more than one big blind.
(b) Dead button – The big blind is posted by the player due for it, and the small blind and button are positioned accordingly, even if this means the small blind or the button is placed in front of an empty seat, giving the same player the privilege of last action on consecutive hands. [See “Section 16 – Explanations,” discussion #1, for more information on this rule.]


I think my position is supported quite clearly and is not mistaken as you say.  The button always moves one seat to the left on each new hand and then the blinds are then posted to the left of the button seat.  The TDA Rules require the use of the Dead Button method.  This means that both the button and/or the SB may be placed in an empty seat.  The Dead Button method requires the BB to be placed in the next seat that is actually occupied by a player.

I can find no rules that support your position and I do not see where I've misinterpreted the above rules.  But, I still find your concept interesting.

TYVM Bill for the time spend on this (supposed to be obvious) point!

We all experiment much more complex rulings so I was quite embarrassed to post this one but sometimes a "simple" case can also divide the pros (and that what happened about this case in my country).

Regards - GG

Brian Vickers

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Re: Position of the blinds
« Reply #6 on: March 13, 2019, 09:21:23 PM »
I'm going to side with Brooks and GG here.  If seat 5 was not knocked out, then seat 6 would be BB.  Seat 6 should not gain anything from another player getting knocked out.  Blinds are still in same seats that they would have been, but since no one is in seat 5 and there can, by rule, be a dead small blind, then seat 5 is dead sb.

Honestly, I don't think this is a situation where either of you is "wrong" but I agree with their application of the rule here.

Dave Miller

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Re: Position of the blinds
« Reply #7 on: March 14, 2019, 05:06:08 AM »
In the pub poker league where I deal, this is one of those situations where we bend the rules in favor of keeping it simple and friendly.

When a player is waiting to sit, and the BB gets knocked out, the new player takes his seat. But because normally the next hand would be only have one big blind, the new player has the option of being the sole BB, or waiting two hands. More often than not, the player chooses to get in the game immediately.

However, when breaking a table, if one of the remaining tables would have a one BB situation, we will put the SB from the broken table into the SB seat and allow him to play. BB gets the UTG seat. Button goes behind the button, etc. We only do a blind random seat assignment when merging to the final table. Again, just to keep things as quick and simple as possible.


Frankly, I can see both sides of the argument for what a poker room should do.
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown.
But how much does it cost to knock on wood?

Guillaume Gleize

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Re: Position of the blinds
« Reply #8 on: March 14, 2019, 09:27:00 AM »
If we number the answers to my case let's say:

1) #2 button / #3 SB / #4 BB

2) #2 button / #3 waits / #4 waits / #6 BB

And what about this one also applied:

3) #2 button / #3 waits / #4 SB / #6 BB

 ::)
« Last Edit: March 14, 2019, 12:57:10 PM by Guillaume Gleize »

BillM16

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Re: Position of the blinds
« Reply #9 on: March 14, 2019, 10:42:42 AM »
I'm going to side with Brooks and GG here.  If seat 5 was not knocked out, then seat 6 would be BB.  Seat 6 should not gain anything from another player getting knocked out.  Blinds are still in same seats that they would have been, but since no one is in seat 5 and there can, by rule, be a dead small blind, then seat 5 is dead sb.

Honestly, I don't think this is a situation where either of you is "wrong" but I agree with their application of the rule here.

Interesting, so whenever players are moving from a broken table you don't allow them to get the BB?  Do you always disregard TDA #9 in this regard?

Also, note these rules as stated in RRoP:

  • The button moves one seat clockwise after a deal ends to rotate the advantage of last action.
  • With two blinds, the small blind is posted by the first player clockwise from the button and the big blind is posted by the second player clockwise from the button.

Everyone seems to agree that the button is moving to seat #2.  We seem to have complete consensus on that point. If we follow RRoP and TDA Rule #9, seat #3 is the SB and seat #4 is the BB.

If this were a situation involving a Dead Button, then one could make a case for seat #6 becoming the BB as "he is due for it" - as stated in RRoP - Dead Button.

  • (b) Dead button – The big blind is posted by the player due for it, and the small blind and button are positioned accordingly, even if this means the small blind or the button is placed in front of an empty seat, giving the same player the privilege of last action on consecutive hands.

But, that rule doesn't apply in our case as this is NOT a Dead Button scenario.  Everyone agrees that seat #2 is the button!  We simply have two players coming in from a broken table and TDA Rule #9 clearly says they can be the SB and the BB and RRoP says they must be as they are the first players clockwise from the button.  Therefore, we follow both TDA and RRoP and they post the blinds.



« Last Edit: March 14, 2019, 07:43:46 PM by BillM16 »

BROOKS

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Re: Position of the blinds
« Reply #10 on: March 19, 2019, 11:13:58 PM »
This is very simple...


TDA 2017 Rules

9:  Breaking Tables
Players from a broken table will be assigned new tables and seats by a 2-step random process. [They can get any seat including small or big blind or the button and be dealt in except between the SB and button. See Illustration Addendum.

This clearly states that players joining a table cannot play between the SB and the button.

Meaning if button is seat 1 and SB is seat 3, the person joining the table, seated in seat 2 must wait a hand. He doesn't become the SB.

It doesn't say let the arriving player sit in the empty seat, and since he's now in the seat left of the button he now becomes SB. It says if they are in-between button and SB they wait.

Bill, your theory doesn't work because "in between the button and SB" would never exist. You'd always make the person left of the button the SB





Guillaume Gleize

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Re: Position of the blinds
« Reply #11 on: March 21, 2019, 06:16:05 AM »
167 views?

Can you please guys vote for your choice here > https://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?topic=1546.0

BillM16

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Re: Position of the blinds
« Reply #12 on: March 21, 2019, 07:29:18 AM »
This is very simple...
...
Meaning if button is seat 1 and SB is seat 3, the person joining the table, seated in seat 2 must wait a hand. He doesn't become the SB.

Brooks, the button is not in seat #1.  The button is in seat #2.  The people joining the table are coming into seat #3 and #4, not seat #2.  So, nobody is between the button and the SB.  But, as you said "This is very simple..."  :-[
« Last Edit: March 21, 2019, 08:44:28 AM by BillM16 »

Guillaume Gleize

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Re: Position of the blinds
« Reply #13 on: March 22, 2019, 04:44:24 AM »
All that makes me wanting to clarify also another simple situation (to be sure we all are in the same line):

sit #1 Button
sit #2 SB
sit #3 BB
sit #4 player etc.

During the hand sit #3 bust!
BEFORE the next hand starts > a player coming from a closing table is placed on the only open sit of the table: #3!

OK now:

sit #2 Button
sit #3 SB (new player) > Do you make him play directly? I do!
sit #4 BB

So in case you agree with me on this last case: I realise that the solution of having both #3 and #4 wait in my original case is not logical!

 :(   Too bad there are no more advices & votes!
« Last Edit: March 22, 2019, 07:34:17 AM by Guillaume Gleize »