Author Topic: Opening bet or calling all in?  (Read 4003 times)

Dave Miller

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Opening bet or calling all in?
« on: February 24, 2019, 09:05:48 AM »
While playing at my local casino poker room, a situation occurred that reminded me a lot of the call/fold issue we're currently discussing here:

$1/$2 cash game. Preflop action brings the pot to about $40 with only two players - seats 2 and 7. Seat 2 has about $150, seat 7 has about $400.

After the flop, seat 2 is first to act. After some thought, he says "all in". He doesn't say it very loudly. I was in seat 5 and I barely heard him. He doesn't push any chips. The dealer doesn't repeat it. Nor does the dealer put out the All In button. The prior dealer DID use the All In button.

After a while, the dealer turns to seat 7 and says the action is on him, again, without any indication of what action seat 2 took. Seat 7 acknowledges and continues to think.

Considering the lack of any chips moved forward, and the lack of indication by the dealer, it's not unrealistic for seat 7 to think seat 2 checked.

Finally, seat 7 throws out a single $25 chip. I.E. He is making a $25 bet. He then turns to get a bite - he has food on a snack tray behind him.

Since so many players toss a single chip to make a call of an all in when heads up, it would then not be unreasonable for seat 2 and the dealer to think seat 7 called the all in.

The dealer runs out the turn and river, and seat 2 turns his cards over - all while seat 7 has his back turned.

When he turns back and sees seat 2's cards, he thinks seat 2 folded. But seeing the turn and river, he is confused and asks what happened, only to be told he called the all in, etc.


What would you rule?


Note: This is partially hypothetical. Seat 2 did go all in without ever moving chips, and the dealer never repeated it nor used the all in button. However, seat 7 eventually pushed out two stacks saying call. He DID hear that seat 2 was all in.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2019, 09:07:07 AM by Dave Miller »
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown.
But how much does it cost to knock on wood?


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Re: Opening bet or calling all in?
« Reply #1 on: March 16, 2019, 04:27:52 AM »
Hi Dave,

Great question! I love that you tweaked the actual scenario a little. I do the same thing when I encounter something unusual. I think it forces us to push the envelope and think outside the box. Anyway, I'm a big believer in using "Ockham's Razor" when I come to a table to make a decision. I mean, I listen to the dealer and the players to try and get as much information as possible but, I try to keep it as simple as possible. In this case, I would put myself in both players shoes and look at it from that perspective. That being said, what I think I would have done was used the TDA rule about Accepted Action. "Poker is a game of alert, continuous, observation, etc." The "caller" wasn't paying attention and now there's a consequence. I would have ruled it a call. Okay, that's the "Ockham's Razor" answer. I ran this scenario by a colleague ( Brandon ) who's opinion I respect a lot and now comes the "Rube Goldberg" answer:

"Well he knows the action is on him. He needs to know what that action is. He made an assumption that it was checked to him. It’s his job to ask and understand the action. The fact that he turns his back to the game for any reason while he is involved is a problem. While I agree that the dealer made a mistake in not using the all in card, and didn’t announce the action of “all in and a call” the player that made the all in wager has done nothing wrong and can’t be penalized. The “caller” has made a couple mistakes here and is with fault. Had he been paying attention to what was going on, he could’ve held things up long before showdown. Then he would’ve had a leg to stand on. Cards are out, hand is tabled. If he can beat it, he wins the $340. We also have no way of knowing whether or not he actually heard the all in statement by the other player and it could be an angle."

Well, we both would have ruled it a call. Hope this helps.

Btw, thank you for your response to my previous post about the blind levels going up and some tables not noticing.

Btw-2, I LOVE your "superstitions quote."   :)


Stuart Murray

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Re: Opening bet or calling all in?
« Reply #2 on: April 13, 2019, 12:32:11 AM »
Given what you have stated about your cash games I have to agree that the second payer has called the all-in and should pay better attention in future.