Author Topic: BB folds when facing no bet  (Read 6463 times)

Ash

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BB folds when facing no bet
« on: April 05, 2018, 05:40:46 PM »
Hi all

New case not exposed in the TDA

Preflop situation
No agressive action, only the blinds still in game, SB calls the BB, and the BB who is distracted folds his cards.
The dealer stops the game, doesn't touch the cards which stay perfectly recognizable, it clearly seems to be an unvoluntary fold, the player didn't say "fold" or anything,

The floor is called
How do you rule this?
« Last Edit: April 09, 2018, 09:17:03 PM by MikeB »

Nick C

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Re: BB folds
« Reply #1 on: April 05, 2018, 06:24:36 PM »
Okay...I'll bite. I give the BB his cards back and the hand continues!

Ash

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Re: BB folds
« Reply #2 on: April 05, 2018, 07:28:42 PM »
A floor can rely on which rule to justify this decision?

BillM16

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Re: BB folds
« Reply #3 on: April 06, 2018, 06:25:00 AM »
According to Rule #58:

58:  Non-Standard Folds
Any time before the end of the final betting round, folding in turn if there’s no bet to you (ex: facing a check or first to act post-flop) or folding out of turn are binding folds subject to penalty.

So, the fold is binding and is subject to penalty.

Ash

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Re: BB folds
« Reply #4 on: April 06, 2018, 06:56:48 AM »
So Nick and Bill would rule this differently...

BillM16

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Re: BB folds
« Reply #5 on: April 06, 2018, 07:02:27 AM »
I would apply Rule #58.  Nick, is ruling differently and may be applying Rule #1.

Nick C

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Re: BB folds
« Reply #6 on: April 06, 2018, 07:37:06 AM »
Thanks to all for not jumping all over me for not agreeing with another TDA rule...again. It's not that I want to disagree, I believe that the integrity of the game is more important than being "politically correct." First I will assume it was an unintentional surrender. Why else would a player fold before seeing the flop? If it was deliberate, I'd be suspicious of chip dumping or collusion. Remember, my decision is for tournament play only. There are numerous TDA rules that I oppose for this very reason. If I'm in a tournament, I want the player with the best hand to win the pot, unless he or she was bluffed off the best hand. I want no undeserving player to collect a windfall of chips because of a situation that was unclear or an unintended forced call.

In the described situation, I'd lean towards Rule #1...every time.

Dave Miller

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Re: BB folds
« Reply #7 on: April 06, 2018, 01:39:22 PM »
I deal in a bar league where I get a lot of novices. I always return the cards. Ditto if a novice open-folds on a later street. I say to them, “Never fold if there’s no bet. You never know what will happen. But you only get one. Do it again be your cards will be dead.”
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown.
But how much does it cost to knock on wood?

Nick C

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Re: BB folds
« Reply #8 on: April 06, 2018, 05:53:58 PM »
Dave,

 In my opinion, your response is perfect. Do it again, the hand is mucked so fast they'd never have a chance to get it back!

Ash

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Re: BB folds
« Reply #9 on: April 06, 2018, 06:58:00 PM »
Thanks all for your answers

MikeB

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Re: BB folds
« Reply #10 on: April 09, 2018, 09:16:46 PM »
TDA Founder Dave Lamb first proposed the language of Rule 58 based on the exact scenario in the OP. The situation was raised by the manager of a bar league who had allowed the BB to continue playing on the final table of a tournament.

Dave favored the view that all gestures or declarations of folding prior to showdown should be considered binding. He did think that in low-stake situations, and particularly those involving a new player, some consideration could be given, however in high-stakes poker pushing the cards back to the player would violate one player to a hand and open up angles (a really strong hand could fake weakness by trying to fold). His proposal was approved at the 2011 (or 2013?) Summit and has been in place and re-affirmed since.

Thanks for the great question!
« Last Edit: April 09, 2018, 09:20:02 PM by MikeB »

Nick C

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Re: BB folds when facing no bet
« Reply #11 on: April 10, 2018, 07:07:25 AM »
Hi Mike,

 I'm beginning to realize why I disagree with so many poker rules...considering the assistance from a dealer as a violation of "one player to a hand" rule. I believe that common sense should override a questionable occurrence at the table. If the dealer gives a verbal command or advises a player as to whether he or she should call, raise or fold, of course, that is unacceptable. Back to the original post.
QUESTION: Why would any player in for all bets surrender their hand before seeing the flop?                       
ANSWER: A mistake...or dumping chips. SEE TDA #69 Ethical Play.

In my opinion, the dealer should not be considered for the one player to a hand rule in that situation.

Returning the hand to the posted big blind in that situation is the best way to assure that there is no collusion or chip dumping.

Mike, please say hello to David Lamb for me. I've tried to contact him on occasion but was unable to reach him. Thank you.


BillM16

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Re: BB folds when facing no bet
« Reply #12 on: April 10, 2018, 08:03:05 AM »
I'm beginning to realize why I disagree with so many poker rules...considering the assistance from a dealer as a violation of "one player to a hand" rule. I believe that common sense should override a questionable occurrence at the table.
Nick, I'm pretty sure that you would agree that what seems to be common sense to one or even many, is not necessarily common sense to the majority.  As you know, the TDA Rules are established by majority voting.  I support your right to disagree and work for change.  I respectfully suggest that you make your point(s) on other than what is common sense to you.
Back to the original post.
QUESTION: Why would any player in for all bets surrender their hand before seeing the flop?                       
ANSWER: A mistake...or dumping chips. SEE TDA #69 Ethical Play.

In my opinion, the dealer should not be considered for the one player to a hand rule in that situation.

In the OP, there were only two remaining players.  Therefore, suggesting that this might be chip dumping is certainly NOT common sense.  It had to be a mistake by a player who failed to pay attention to the situation at hand.  Players who pay less attention to the game than their opponent(s) deserve to pay the price by losing chips.  It is not the role of dealers to assist players with attention to the game, especially heads-up for the money!
« Last Edit: April 12, 2018, 07:41:14 AM by BillM16 »

Nick C

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Re: BB folds when facing no bet
« Reply #13 on: April 10, 2018, 09:09:33 AM »
Okay, Bill,

 I don't know where to begin. All I will say is that I don't agree with anything you said. Common sense is just that simple...it's common sense! As far as the TDA rules being established by majority voting, I'll disagree with that, too. I never said to change a rule, I merely stated what I would rule, and why. I think this is a perfect situation to use TDA #1.

As far as your suggestion that I "make my point on other than what is common sense to me" ...Hmm, is there any member of the TDA that has done that more than me? :D No...

I suggest you read the question again. Would your decision be different if there were multiple players that folded to the blinds? You also admitted that it was a mistake!
I believe there are rules for poker that suggest any player seeing an error about to occur would have an ethical obligation to correct it.

I'm still waiting for more suggestions and replies to remedy the issues with the reopening of betting...or are we just going to let it go another year?

BillM16

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Re: BB folds when facing no bet
« Reply #14 on: April 10, 2018, 10:54:47 AM »
It is wrong for a dealer to tell a player that “you should see the flop”

- the odds are 10 to 1
- the odds are 1000 to 1
- the odds are infinitely in your favor

One player per hand always. I agree with the TDA majority. The fold is binding and under some circumstances, subject to penalty.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2018, 11:00:07 AM by BillM16 »