Author Topic: Called All-in with cards in muck  (Read 11484 times)

Stuart Murray

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Called All-in with cards in muck
« on: December 24, 2009, 07:10:53 AM »
This happened last night and I am looking for concensus asto a ruling.

4 players see a min-raised pot with blinds of 1000/2000 so 16,000 in the middle.  Player 3 pushes all-in for 12,000 on the flop and button calls, other two players fold.  Player 3 flips over the winning hand and then button (button deals game) has mucked his hand accidentally.  He pulls his cards out and identifies them, players 3 & 4 call the TD (not me in this instance) for a ruling.  Button (who was UIA) states his cards were on the top of the muck pile and shows K 3 for a loosing bottom pair against A 7 for top,top.  The statements made by Button are not challenged and TD rules that his hand is live and should play because his cards were on the top of the muck.  I felt the decision incorrect and would of ruled the hand dead as the cards were not easily retreived (IE not sticking out of the muck pile) and because he was the dealer and player for that hand it was important for him to look after his own hand for integrity of the game.

Comments please on this situation to see if my reasoning is correct!

Regards
Stuart

chet

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Re: Called All-in with cards in muck
« Reply #1 on: December 24, 2009, 11:03:21 AM »
Stuart:  If it was really an accident that the cards were mucked AND if they can be retrieved accurately, I agree with the ruling that the hand is live.  Remember, Rule #9.  Which requires all live hands to be turned FACE UP once a players is all-in AND the betting action is complete.  In your example, as soon as the last action player folded, both hands must be face up and from there "cards speak". 

That said, I would have to be 100% positive that the dealer hand going into the muck was an accident AND I would have to be 100% positive the hand could be accurately retrieved.  If I am not sure about either, then I would rule the hand dead.  The chips of the button player, up to the amount of the all-in bet, stay in the pot.

As you are well aware, this type of situation is just another of the issues that player dealt games face.  Having run such events for several years, I can easily understand how that could happen, especially if the 'dealer' isn't all that experienced.   You might consider making some kind of card protector mandatory for all players.  It might help in the future.

Hope this helps!!

MikeB

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Re: Called All-in with cards in muck
« Reply #2 on: December 24, 2009, 01:55:41 PM »

 I felt the decision incorrect and would of ruled the hand dead as the cards were not easily retreived (IE not sticking out of the muck pile) and because he was the dealer and player for that hand it was important for him to look after his own hand for integrity of the game.

Stuart
That would be my thought process... as Chet mentioned, the standard is 100% certainty, not 99%... since it doesn't seem like 100% is possible here, in a serious game I don't see how these cards can be ruled live. Looked at another way, I'd be real %$#@ off if a player could snatch 2 cards of his choice "off the top" of a muck pile, table them and win a pot against me :(

Nick C

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Re: Called All-in with cards in muck
« Reply #3 on: April 12, 2010, 06:13:08 PM »
 I am responding to a very old post that I have just looked at. If a dealer properly kills a hand, or a card, it should be slid into the muck not on top of the muck. The purpose is to make it impossible to retrieve. I agree with Stuart, Chet and Mike. It's unfortunate when that happens, but it is also one of the most important rules of poker; Protect your hand.

Nick C

Mike Lorne

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Re: Called All-in with cards in muck
« Reply #4 on: April 20, 2010, 11:27:03 AM »
I  also agree players are required to always potect their hands,but i have adopted a way of (in the interest of fair play) in tournaments , I trained my dealers to "stack"the muck to where I and the floor can recover a hand with certainty and confirm with the player in question before he/she sees the cards that, that is the hand that was mucked  ,unusual as it is tournaments, have situations to recover hands from the muck ,dealer error is most certainly one of them,this practice works well for us and the players and it also portrays a dealer in control,in the interest of being fair I cannot call this hand dead if it is correctly retreivable.

                                                                                                                                                                        Gl,  Michael

Nick C

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Re: Called All-in with cards in muck
« Reply #5 on: April 20, 2010, 04:17:38 PM »
Mike Lorne,
 I have to disagree with this one. I have been training dealers for a long time and under no circumstance should a hand be retrieved from the muck, unless it was properly tabled (face-up horizontal on the table) before it was erroneously mucked by the dealer. It is unfortunate when any player mucks a winning hand, but that's the way it is. If a player holds on to their cards until they see the hand that has theirs beat, this wouldn't happen. In this case, I assume that the deal was being passed around the table and he mucked his own hand. Without a house dealer, problems like this will always occur, just like exposing cards while trying to pitch the length of an oblong table.

 The proper way to muck a hand is to slide the cards into the muck, not stack them nicely so they can be retrieved. Stuart, I know this is an old post but, you are 100% correct in declaring the hand dead.

That's the way I see it.

Nick C 

Stuart Murray

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Re: Called All-in with cards in muck
« Reply #6 on: April 21, 2010, 06:46:42 AM »
I agree with you Nick, I previously mentioned on another thread about 'Stacking Cards' and if that was the intention of us we would have discard holders at poker tables - it is called a muck pile for a reason.

Best Regards
Stuart

Mrsvelvet

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Re: Called All-in with cards in muck
« Reply #7 on: April 22, 2010, 03:34:53 AM »
Hi All

This hand is Dead and should not have been retrieved, it is the players responsibility to ensure that their hole cards are protected at all times and if they don't do it then it is at their cost. This tends to happen with in-experienced dealers / players so I revised our "Table Management" policy. We now require that mucked cards are stacked tidily with the dealer button placed on top then moved slightly to one side or forward away from the dealers hole cards, the muck stack is then very visible to all players, this has proved very successful in stopping this situation happening.

Nick C

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Re: Called All-in with cards in muck
« Reply #8 on: April 22, 2010, 05:02:37 AM »
Mrsvelvet,
 
 I would not expect to change the policy of your dealers, if it works for you. I do need to let anyone that is interested in the proper procedures for casino poker that stacking the muck is not acceptable in any poker room. There are too many questions indicating this type of problem whenever professional dealers are not used. A good dealer is not going to kill a hand that is protected. I can't imagine any dealer stacking discards in a nice neat pile without the risk of exposing a card or two. Passing the deal around the table is not even a subject that is covered by any rules that I've ever seen, so I guess you can do whatever works for your tournament. Hire some real dealers and see how much smoother your tournament goes.

Nick c

Mrsvelvet

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Re: Called All-in with cards in muck
« Reply #9 on: April 26, 2010, 07:17:39 AM »
Mrsvelvet,
 
 I would not expect to change the policy of your dealers, if it works for you. I do need to let anyone that is interested in the proper procedures for casino poker that stacking the muck is not acceptable in any poker room. There are too many questions indicating this type of problem whenever professional dealers are not used. A good dealer is not going to kill a hand that is protected. I can't imagine any dealer stacking discards in a nice neat pile without the risk of exposing a card or two. Passing the deal around the table is not even a subject that is covered by any rules that I've ever seen, so I guess you can do whatever works for your tournament. Hire some real dealers and see how much smoother your tournament goes.

Nick c

Nick c

A couple of things... firstly..

Maybe I read Stuarts post wrong? in which case I apologise for any confusion arising from my post, but IMO...

If you read Stuarts original post you will see that he clearly states that this was a "Button Deals Game" (so no professional dealer) further more when reading Stuarts post it reads to me as if this was a "Non Casino / Card Room" Venue (possibly a Nuts Local Pub League game?) with a Non Professional Local TD and as such I answered accordingly from that point of view.

Regards my revision of "table policy" this is only implemented for my "Local Pub League Venues" which are all self / Button dealt as are all UK Pub Poker Leagues (unless it is a final which may then be held in a casino but even then not all leagues provide professional dealers until the last couple of tables or even final table, and again I only included this suggestion because I read Stuarts post to be from the "Local League" point of view and it has worked very well for us over the last 18 months.

Perhaps I was a little to literal in using the "Tidely stacked" comment, what I meant is that the cards are not left strewn across the table and that the muck cards are gathered in one place away from the dealers own hole cards, In Professional level tournaments with Professional Dealers in a Professional environment this would never be an issue but again I stress that my reply was from the "Local League" perspective and not from the "Professional Card Room / Casino" level.

I hope that clarifies my reply to Stuart for you

Secondly....

As for your "Hire some real dealers" Comment, I found that to be on the verge of insulting and take exception to it, my involvement with the TDA forum is so that I can bring the correct rules / rulings and standards to players and tournaments which are at the very grass-roots of poker in the UK, in doing so I deal with the absolute poker beginner and amateur level players everyday of the week and probably deal with issues that the Professional Casino / Card room TD does not have to so that by the time that player comes to the casino or pro tournament that you are running you don't have to deal with those issues. I am not here to listen to yours or anyone else's condescending remarks and I am sure that not what the TDA is about, If I am wrong I welcome the correction as I am here to learn just the same as everyone else but if all you have to offer are insults I suggest you keep them to yourself.







Nick C

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Re: Called All-in with cards in muck
« Reply #10 on: April 26, 2010, 08:38:20 AM »
Mrsvelvet,
 Please acept my sincere apology. I had no right to criticize you in any way. I have been training dealers for so long that I am always trying to find a place for them to get experience. My ignorance to the rules of other jurisdictions does not give me the right to comment on your tournaments. On the contrary, I'm sure that they are something that all of the players look forward to. In fact, your poker league sounds like a lot of fun, the way they should be. I want to apologize to the TDA for sending the wrong message to any members. The Discussion Forum is a great way to learn. Mrsvelvet, I have to tell you that I have enjoyed reading all of your comments and it is obvious to me that you are experienced and very good at what you do. I did consider sending you a private message but, I feel that you deserve a public apology from me. I can only hope that you accept this and allow me to reply whenever I think I have something positive to add.

Sincerely,
Nick C

Mrsvelvet

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Re: Called All-in with cards in muck
« Reply #11 on: April 26, 2010, 09:15:35 AM »
Hi Nick

Apology warmly welcomed & very much accepted and thank you for proving to be a Gentleman!

Likewise I have always enjoyed reading your posts as they have proved valuable in the past and I am sure they will continue to prove to be even more valuable in the future to, not just to me but to all visitors and members of the TDA, I truly do appreciate and welcome yours and everyone else's input.

I look forward to many in-depth Discussions & Debates in all things Poker

My Up-most Respects, Regards & Thanks

Mrs Velvet

Martin L. Waller

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Re: Called All-in with cards in muck
« Reply #12 on: April 26, 2010, 08:24:31 PM »
Stuart,

I donít see why this was such an issue. You said that the Dealers hand was retrieved but was a loser. Why did he even call the floor to retrieve the hand? Any way, Iíve also had this happen and in my case the hand was dead.

I know they arenít pro dealers but they have to keep control of the table while they are dealing. As players they also have to keep control of their cards. This guy failed on both counts.

As far as the ruling I would always call this dead retrievable or not.

Good luck,
Martin 

pokerfish

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Re: Called All-in with cards in muck
« Reply #13 on: May 04, 2010, 08:44:01 AM »
IMO if a players cards are mistakenly mucked (for whatever reason) and 100% identified both as to their content and as to the exact two cards in the muck, they should be retrieved (usually). In a home dealt game I would be even more willing to do this with 100% certainty. That said, when I used to deal, once I got your cards, they were never retrievable.... they were mucked properly and that is never stacked. When I see a dealer stack the muck, I know we are going to have shuffling clumps.... a proper muck pile almost makes the shuffle needless. IMO.
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