Author Topic: Losing the right to act!  (Read 9228 times)

Guillaume Gleize

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 241
Losing the right to act!
« on: May 04, 2010, 06:23:40 AM »
Hello,

This famous sentence from the RRoP (to "lose the right to act" if 3 players acted after you before you act) seems to be still dividing the american TDs!

Exemple:
5 players at the turn - pot of 2500 (each one allready bet 500 in the middle)

Player A bet 1000
Player B (with the nuts) is forgotten by player C
Player C folds
Player D call 1000
Player E raise 4000

Player B stops the action, ask for the floor and claim for his right to play!

On the forums: most will say his hand his DEAD (!) ... come on: BE SINCERE: WILL YOU REALLY DO THAT DURING A BIG SHOW? OK: he should have react quicker ... but the other players are also responsable for not knowing who is in the hand ... (?!) ... both didn't pay enought attention !
Some will only let him fold or call (obvious call here) but what about his rights when the turn to bet comes back to him ? ... BECAUSE HE WILL CERTAINLY RERAISE THE 4000 RAISE TO (let say) 15000 !!!

My solution: I NEVER KILL A HAND in this situation (I think Bob Ciaffone never mean "dead hand" with "lose the right to act") ... BUT I FORBID THE PLAYER TO ACT (change the situation: open bet or raise) DURING ALL THE BETTING ROUND IN QUESTION!

That is in this exemple: I only allow player B to FOLD or CALL the intitial bet (1000) and to only FOLD or CALL ALL THE FOLLOWING BETS in this round (he only can fold or call the raise of 4000 or any other reraise in this round).

PS1: in the next betting round (the river): he will be free again.
PS2: if caught in the same situation again later: he will be penalized

Why I apply the rule this way? Because it seems to me to be "in the best interest of the game":
1- I don't want to choose to kill a hand or not depending on the "feeling of angling or not" from a dealer or floor manager.
2- With this method the following players are really not disadvantaged (or so few but remember they also forgot a player in the hand)!

Waiting for your precious advises ... with best regards,
GG
 
« Last Edit: May 04, 2010, 06:34:23 AM by Guillaume Gleize »

Stuart Murray

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 643
Re: Losing the right to act!
« Reply #1 on: May 04, 2010, 06:48:55 AM »
Hi,

yeh I agree IMO RROP was never designed to kill the hand in the situation.  Loosing your right to act does not mean your hand is dead - it means you cannot change the action, so you can only call or fold any bet.

Once the betting round is complete the player IS released from this 'bind' so yes, he has all options available to him on the next round of betting.  I WOULD issue a penalty if the same player misses his turn or fails to call time, as he must protect his right to act in turn, I would also issue a warning to the player on this occasion if I felt he had failed to pay attention, but I would never kill his hand.

Regards
Stu

Guillaume Gleize

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 241
Re: Losing the right to act!
« Reply #2 on: May 04, 2010, 07:08:29 AM »
Hello Stuart,

Thanks for this quick answer!

So in this case ... and admitting Player B (obviously) choosed to call the initial 1000: do you agree like me to FORBID HIM TO RERAISE THE RAISE OF 4000 (remember he has the nuts)?

If YES: you will be a precious allies to me to fight all thoses "everything or nothing" who will either KILL his hand or COMPLETLY FREE HIM after the initial obliged call of the 1000 (and let him reraise the 4000)!

 ;)

Stuart Murray

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 643
Re: Losing the right to act!
« Reply #3 on: May 04, 2010, 07:19:40 AM »
Ok so now you have got me thinking!

Robert's Rules:

11. Deliberately acting out of turn will not be tolerated. A player who checks out of turn may not bet or raise on the next turn to act. A player who has called out of turn may not change his wager to a raise on the next turn to act. An action or verbal declaration out of turn is binding unless the action to that player is subsequently changed by a bet or raise. If there is an intervening call, an action may be ruled binding.

12. To retain the right to act, a player must stop the action by calling �time� (or an equivalent word). Failure to stop the action before three or more players have acted behind you may cause you to lose the right to act. You cannot forfeit your right to act if any player in front of you has not acted, only if you fail to act when it legally becomes your turn. Therefore, if you wait for someone whose turn comes before you, and three or more players act behind you, this still does not hinder your right to act.

So he has lost his right to act in the situation, I have always said that he looses his rights during the round of betting, so IMO the raise after him although action changing has not lifted his rights again so I would say he can only call the raise to 4000, as this raise has already occurred before he called time, yeh the more I think about this the more I say he is bound during the whole round of betting so he can only keep calling or fold.

I am however not certain, what would happen if for example he called time, called the 500 and then additional player still to act raised then to 4000 total, this would be action changing after he had called time and I am not sure if this would release him to act freely, I would say probably not but I am not sure!  Hopefully someone else will chime in with the required technical knowledge on this issue!

Stu

pokerfish

  • TDA Founding Member
  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • *****
  • Posts: 93
    • cardplayercruises.com
Re: Losing the right to act!
« Reply #4 on: May 04, 2010, 08:31:21 AM »
This hand is never dead.... unless it's a repeated situation. Agreed he can't change the action. The next street is an entirely new situation and he has all options open to him.  If D re raises I would allow him any actions....
Jan Fisher
TDA - Board of Directors
http://www.cardplayercruises.com

Stuart Murray

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 643
Re: Losing the right to act!
« Reply #5 on: May 04, 2010, 08:54:18 AM »
Thanks for the input Jan,

interesting you say you would free C if D raises, does this include this case where he called time after E had raised?

Stu

pokerfish

  • TDA Founding Member
  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • *****
  • Posts: 93
    • cardplayercruises.com
Re: Losing the right to act!
« Reply #6 on: May 04, 2010, 08:58:46 AM »
I am lost now who is ABCD but I would only allow him to non aggressively react to actions that are made before he says something. I think I was inferring that I'd allow him to RR if a player acting after his call RR'd....
Jan Fisher
TDA - Board of Directors
http://www.cardplayercruises.com

Stuart Murray

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 643
Re: Losing the right to act!
« Reply #7 on: May 04, 2010, 09:11:48 AM »
ah yeh that's what I was looking for

for example a player raises to 4000 and then he calls time you would only allow passive action, but if the player calls time, calls the bet and then a player to act raises you would allow aggressive action?

my original post was that I would keep it passive but I was not sure:

I am however not certain, what would happen if for example he called time, called the 500 and then additional player still to act raised then to 4000 total, this would be action changing after he had called time and I am not sure if this would release him to act freely, I would say probably not but I am not sure!  Hopefully someone else will chime in with the required technical knowledge on this issue!

Thanks
Stu

pokerfish

  • TDA Founding Member
  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • *****
  • Posts: 93
    • cardplayercruises.com
Re: Losing the right to act!
« Reply #8 on: May 04, 2010, 09:27:01 AM »
I think it boils down to his timing of calling attention to his missed action, was it preventable, did he gain knowledge, etc. Whatever action he knew was going to occur, I would not now give him the chance to check raise that.... however, if he calls this raise he knows is coming and another player reopens the betting to the entire table, IMO it would include him now and all of his options would be open.
Jan Fisher
TDA - Board of Directors
http://www.cardplayercruises.com

Stuart Murray

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 643
Re: Losing the right to act!
« Reply #9 on: May 04, 2010, 09:55:19 AM »
Sweet yeh, I agree with your reasoning Jan, seems perfectly acceptable to go down that line.


Cheers
Stu

Guillaume Gleize

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 241
Re: Losing the right to act!
« Reply #10 on: May 05, 2010, 03:16:56 AM »
I got it: let's make it clear:

6 players at the turn for ex:

Player A bets 1000
Player B is forgotten
Player C folds
Player D calls 1000
Player E raises 4000
---> then Player B stops the action before Player F act ...
Player F waits for the floor decision ...

For me (as says the rules) Player B must be punished to have reacted too late (3 players acted after him): SO NOW HE CAN'T CHANGE THE SITUATION ANYMORE ON EVERYTHING ALLREADY DONE BEFORE HE REACTED (here he can only fold or call the 1000 to only call the 4000 when it's back to him) ... BUT IF SOMEONE RAISE AFTER HIS DECISION (for exemple Player F reraise at 15000) ... THEN THE PLAYER B IS ABSOLUTELELY FREE AGAIN ON THE 3 OPTIONS (for exemple he can reraise to 40000!)!

It sound to me the most fair: let's punish Player B on his PAST ERROR and protect the other players ... but we can't punish him ON THE FUTUR ACTIONS! Let's explain the situation clearly to all the players and let them know that if they raise AGAIN in the actual betting round ... they will END the penalty and FREE the "guilty" player!

GG  
« Last Edit: May 05, 2010, 03:19:20 AM by Guillaume Gleize »

Stuart Murray

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 643
Re: Losing the right to act!
« Reply #11 on: May 05, 2010, 06:28:38 AM »
yeh, he would need to call the 1,000 then wait for it to come back to him on the 4,000, which he would only be able to call.  If player F now raises after this we are of the view that this would free him to take aggressive action again, but it would be determined by the situation.

It would really be a rule #1 in the situation whether you released that player to take aggressive action again. But on the 1,000 and 4,000 he is bound to passive action only as this all occurred before he called time.  I believe you could bind him regardless throughout the betting round if you deemed his inaction grave enough, for example if people were pushing all-in behind him and then someone pushed all-in again this would be more serious, and would require some kind of considerable penalty after the hand was finished as 'heavy' action has occurred before he has called time.

Stu

Guillaume Gleize

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 241
Re: Losing the right to act!
« Reply #12 on: May 05, 2010, 08:32:24 AM »
Thanks for your advices. For sure I desesperatly tried to establish an unique rule in (another) spot where only the human manager will decide ... !

Let's say my conclusion was the "general" line ... but I would definitively kill the hand of a player letting a full table reraise ans re-reraise each-others bets before calling for time to call everybody with the nuts ...

 ;)

So if not 3 players ... let's write "Hand dead if 4 players act after him" ... or more ? ... 5? 6? 7? ...
(JOOOKE: some rules can't be written black on white. That's why we managers get our salaries: to make the decision!)

Stuart Murray

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 643
Re: Losing the right to act!
« Reply #13 on: May 05, 2010, 08:39:08 AM »
Guillaume,

In my eyes and I think it is now the consensus with the TDA his hand would never be dead, even if it was a 10 handed with a family pot, he was in the big blind and didn't call time until after the button had acted, he would not have a dead hand, the killing of hands by a TD is no longer in the best interests of the game unless there is serious reason to kill the hand.  Round penalties etc are now more favourable.

Regards
Stuart

Guillaume Gleize

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 241
Re: Losing the right to act!
« Reply #14 on: May 05, 2010, 10:53:51 AM »
I agree.

My first conclusion (and "general line") was writen before. "Killing the hand" was the ultimate exemple against a rare and extreme situation ... but to be true I would better have chosen any other penalty but coudn't have really killed it.

Best regards.

GG