What is the Nuts?

[Dave Miller]

Last night at my poker league, while discussing the Last to act with nuts rule, the discussion took a turn to discuss just what the nuts is.

For example, on the following board, what is "The Nuts"? What's the second nuts?

Kc Qc Jc 6s 6d

Note: There are multiple correct answers, and the answer changes if you're talking about Omaha instead of Hold Em.

Think about it. I'll post the correct answers in a couple days.

[chet]

OK Dave, I'll bite:

Nuts = Ac 10c
2nd Nuts = 10c 9c

But I don't understand why you say the answer changes if Omaha instead of Hold Em?

btw:  3rd Nuts = 6c 6h

Or am I showing just how much I no longer remember?

Chet

[Nick C]

Chet is correct. However, if you are holding 10c & 9c you would also have the exclusive nuts because your 10 stops the royal. Too tricky and I'll have to say Chet's answer is right.

 Now if you want to get real technical...in Omaha if you have two sixes and you also block the royal by holding the 10 of clubs, then you would be holding the exclusive nuts. Is that what you were looking for?

[Dave Miller]

Chet is partially correct.

As you pointed out, 10c 9c is also the nuts, which makes 6c 6h the second nuts, not the third as Chet mentioned.

Note: That's a hint to the thinking required to come up with the FOUR different nut hands if this was Omaha.

[Dave Miller]

OK. As already mentioned, Ac 10c as well as 10c 9c are both the Nuts, for both Hold Em and Omaha. Two different but similar hands that are unbeatable, therefore they're the Nuts. There are no other nut hands for Hold Em.

A third hand for Omaha that can be the Nuts is 6c 6h 10c Xx as this gives you quads, while also holding the card that prevents anyone from making the Royal or Straight Flush.

So what's the fourth hand in Omaha that can be the Nuts for the board shown in the original post?

If nobody gets it, I'll tell ya tomorrow...

[Nick C]

K...K...10c...+ either 6

[Brian Vickers]

As much as I like debate on an poker related topic, there is no such rule regarding the nuts in the TDA and as such this likely belongs in http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?board=16.0 forum.

[Dave Miller]

Brian -

This thread is NOT about any rule.

It's about whether or not the average player can identify a Nut hand.

[Nick C]

Dave,

 Don't keep me in suspense...was I right?

[Dave Miller]

Oh, yeah. You got it.

But like I said above, identifying a hand as the Nuts can be a challenge.

[Nick C]

Dave,

 Gee, thanks for the praise. I thought I'd win a prize. Do you have any more of those gems to throw at us? 

[Dave Miller]

Nick -

Sorry if you think I was giving you false praise or something.

I was merely trying to illustrate how difficult it can be to identify a Nut hand, and therefore, how that rule about the nuts in final position is a terrible rule. (Thankfully, in my other thread we learn that it's not a rule.)


Here's two more puzzles for ya:

1) A variation of the original question: The board has Kc Qc Jc with two rags that aren't paired, then there are three hands that are The Nuts. Ac 10c, and 10c 9c are two talked about earlier in this thread. What's the third?

2) The board has Qx Qx 8x 8x 5x. What two hands are The Nuts?

I have no desire to keep you in suspense, so the answers are below.



For what it's worth, about a year ago, my pub league had a promo where if the winner of a hand is holding the Nuts, he got a scratch-off lottery ticket. (It's a low-budget league.)

More than once, a brief argument erupted about what the Nuts is. Of course, there was also the guy who argued that holding pocket Aces, and going all in pre-flop and getting no calls so there's no flop, means he is holding a Nut hand.

That was when I started to develop these multiple-Nut puzzles. Sorry to disappoint ya, but these are all I got.







Answers:




1) Ac 9c. I.E. Ace high flush with a blocker to a Straight Flush.

2) Qx Qx or Qx 8x. Note that Qx 8x can be tied by another random Queen, but it can't be beaten. Also, if that 5 had been higher than an 8, then the only Nut hand would be Qx Qx.

[Nick C]

Dave,

 Just to be sure we're talking about the correct subject. A couple of your examples are not "exclusive" nut hands, so they should not be considered in this conversation. You could never be penalized holding a nut straight, if another player could also be holding the same hand.

 If you look back in the archives you'll find numerous posts on this subject. Every possible reason has been covered for not wanting to raise with the "exclusive" nut hand, to why a penalty must be given if that player fails to raise when last to act.

[Dave Miller]

Nick -


I think you're defining "exclusive" two ways. Earlier in the thread, it meant "excluding other types of hands". In your last post, it meant "excluding other players".


A casual observer could identify multiple Nut hands, because my example all involve a blocker card. However, since only one player could be holding the key blocker card, only one player could hold the Nuts. That's excluding other types of hands. A player holding the blocker could have the Nuts, even though the casual observer would think the Nuts are a higher hand - until he sees the player's cards.

There's only one example I provided where more than one player can have the Nuts. That was the Qx Qx 8x 8x 5x board where two people could be holding Qx 8x. Both players exclude other types of hands since their hand excludes Quad eights.

Your example of the straight cards (with no possible flush or pair on board) where multiple people hold the Nut straight is flawed. Sure, with a board of Kx Qx Jx 10X Xx, four players could be holding an Ace. All for of them are holding The Nuts. How/why does "exclusive nuts" come in to play?

Why are you trying to exclude other players from also holding the Nuts?

With the Qx8x example, or your straight example, with respect to that 'rule', and assuming no other player is involved, whomever is last should be raising. And it should continue to be re-raised until everyone is All In.


Mind you, "The Nuts" does NOT mean a hand that is guaranteed to win. It means a hand that is unbeatable.

[Nick C]

Dave,

 I'm getting dizzy with "the nuts!" A nut hand is exclusive, and can not be beat or tied...you can only lose if you overlook the hand and dump it, or you are in collusion with the player holding the loser that you decide to surrender to.

 Any arguments begin when we question why a player holding such a hand (exclusive nuts) would not bet or raise when last to act on the final betting round. Examples: Did not realize he had the nuts...or, wants to see the opponents hands. Other than that, many believe it is a form of "soft play!" I don't agree but that shouldn't surprise anyone. It's just the way the discussion began...years ago.