Author Topic: Verbal all-in Out-of-turn  (Read 18515 times)

Linda Johnson

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Re: Verbal all-in
« Reply #15 on: April 15, 2010, 11:13:38 PM »
I agree with Stuart when he said: "By the book his bet does not stand, but then between the lines, we can take a different approach." From my viewpoint the action has changed by someone else going all-in ahead of the BB, so if asked to rule strictly by the letter of the law, I would have allowed the BB to take his all-in back. However, since TDs have discretion to act in the fairness of the tournament, I would have made him leave his all-in in the pot. My reasoning is that since he had announced that he was going all-in, he may have actually affected other players' decisons. It's possible that some of the earleir positions may have limped or raised but since they knew the BB was going all-in, they may have folded instead.

It's my personal opinion that it would be wrong to let the BB get away with this shot.
Linda Johnson

MikeB

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Re: Verbal all-in
« Reply #16 on: April 16, 2010, 02:21:56 AM »
Now I see where this happened in the hand. Okay, it's preflop, blinds are posted (assume 100-200) and the BB declares all-in. The dealer says nothing, apparently allowing the action to stand, and after the downcards are dealt, the UTG folds, presuming that the BB's all-in is a rightful bet... and action proceeds around the table. That's my current understanding of what's happened.
Okay, there's several issues here. first, what should have happened. IMO right when the BB declares the all-in, the dealer should have told him that's an out-of-turn bet. O-O-T action should always be flagged as soon as it happens, in order to place the action on the proper player.... THEN the dealer should have informed the rest of the table of what the implications are. "Folks this is out-of-turn... at the time he was facing no action... if you just call the BB (200), he's bound to leave the all-in at risk. If you bet beyond the BB at all, you change the action and he can reconsider the all-in...".  That, IMO, is what should always happen in an out-of-turn situation. The rest of the table has a right to know what the implications of their betting action is, and this clears up any confusion when it gets back to the out-of-turn player.
BUT... the above didn't happen. Instead apparently play progressed with everyone, including the dealer, treating the BB all-in as the bet in play. So, 2nd issue, what should happen after this error has occured? FIVE PLAYERS ACTED dramatically on this... either folding or going all-in themselves. Then the action gets back to the BB and he wants to change his mind. While a case can be made for this, I prefer leaving the bet committed. 1) He knew what he was doing, insisting on betting all-in completely in the dark and blind; 2) While he might technically have the right to retract, it's a much bigger injury to the remaining players to be put in the untenable situation of acting in good faith on the guy's bet with no house dealer instructions otherwise, then only being called once he decides he likes his cards and has seen all of their intended action. That's way too much information to provide this BB. What's the course of least harm? I feel it's to leave the bet standing in the best interest of the game. Last issue, whether to penalize, this house says he has the right to retract, then they punish him for electing to do so. That's like punishing someone in court for asserting their 5th amendment rights. Either he has the right to retract or not, and whichever it is becomes the ruling... either way there's really no basis for a penalty here for a first offense. Interesting post, thanks for sharing it.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2010, 04:29:12 AM by MikeB »

Nick C

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Re: Verbal all-in Out-of-turn
« Reply #17 on: April 16, 2010, 07:05:31 AM »
This is a real interesting post. Mike and Linda both responded with their take on the situation. We all understand that the action never should have been allowed, to begin with. After all of the votes are tallied, I think the majority agree that his bet should stand. This is where rule #1 should be followed, consider the best interest of the game and fairness. How can we allow any out of turn player to retract his verbal raise because action changes in front of him? Maybe I'll start raising from the button position
before the UTG acts. Then if anyone calls or raises I can take my bet back, right? We don't need rule #8 or #10 or #29 or #43 or #44......All we need is common sense and rule #1

Nick C
« Last Edit: March 13, 2014, 08:03:20 AM by Nick C »

Martin L. Waller

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Re: Verbal all-in Out-of-turn
« Reply #18 on: April 16, 2010, 08:14:26 AM »
I have a friend back home that runs a card room. He isn’t a pro poker player or gambler. But, he does have a good grasp of how games should be played. One of his comments to his players kind of sums this up.

“This is a simple game and all you have to do is follow the rules. It’s when a player tries to get fancy that problems occur.”

If players would just sit and play the game like they have good since most of our problems would never exist.

Ya’ll are a lot of help.

Thanks,
Martin

pokerfish

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Re: Verbal all-in Out-of-turn
« Reply #19 on: April 16, 2010, 09:09:42 AM »
I agree with having the money stay for the overriding reasons that the players were mislead and acted thinking (reasonably so) that the bet would stay. That said, if the guys wins the pot or has more chips and doesn't go broke that hand, I do penalize him... he didn't just "act out of turn", he did so deliberately and that is a shot and is one thing that creates the problems as well as a hostile environment.

Good comments everyone.
Jan
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Mrsvelvet

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Re: Verbal all-in Out-of-turn
« Reply #20 on: April 18, 2010, 10:32:22 AM »
Excellent Discussion, this is one of those where "Technicalities" clash and the TD's Common sense needs to take over!

Technically Yes this player can withdraw the "blind all in" but in this instance (as it seems to be a shot IMO) I would not allow them to, however if they survived the hand I would then hit them with a very substantial penalty.

I enforce a policy of "no action prior to the last card dealt" and in most cases this seems to prevent this from happening but I still see this one from players who go on "tilt" after loosing a big hand (newbies in particular) and occasionally from players taking a "shot" and it just causes grief on the table, amazingly enough I find that when you pull these players up short many change their mind about the move anyway!

Really interesting topic, thanks for sharing !