Dealer doesn't hear verbal all-in

[Nick C]

Ralph,

What you and Brian fail to recognize is the fact that the dealer obviously did not hear the all-in. The all important dealer... that too many of us fail to have any faith in. Many dealers are more competent than the floor that they answer to. Players need to let the dealer know what their intent is so the dealer can properly relay the message to the next player to act. Let the dealer control the action, the way he was taught in dealer school, and 99% of your problems are solved!

Dealer training is much easier to accomplish...easier than trying to teach players to abide by the rules. A competent dealer will direct the action to the proper player and tell him what the bet is, or he can prevent an improper action before it occurs. Just think how nice it could be if players acted in turn and followed the direction of a good dealer.

[Uniden32]

What you and Brian fail to recognize is the fact that the dealer obviously did not hear the all-in.

I think we both recognize this fact, it's the reason we were called over ...



Nick and Mike,

Unfortunately, in a real brick and mortar setting, dealers miss stuff.  It happens every day.

As a floor/TD, it's imperative that you gather as much information as possible from both the players and the dealers.  Not just the dealers. 

Mind you, I'm going to give my dealer the benefit of the doubt in situations where I get multiple versions.  Had several of the players not involved in the hand state that they didn't hear the all-in, then I'm ruling it as a call. 

That wasn't the case.  In the original post, he states that 8 players agreed that the player stated all-in.  To me, that's a consensus of players not involved in the hand.

For me, the decision is easy, he's all-in, back up the flop.

[MikeB]

What you and Brian fail to recognize is the fact that the dealer obviously did not hear the all-in.

I think we both recognize this fact, it's the reason we were called over ...



Nick and Mike,

Unfortunately, in a real brick and mortar setting, dealers miss stuff.  It happens every day.

As a floor/TD, it's imperative that you gather as much information as possible from both the players and the dealers.  Not just the dealers. 

Mind you, I'm going to give my dealer the benefit of the doubt in situations where I get multiple versions.  Had several of the players not involved in the hand state that they didn't hear the all-in, then I'm ruling it as a call. 

That wasn't the case.  In the original post, he states that 8 players agreed that the player stated all-in.  To me, that's a consensus of players not involved in the hand.

For me, the decision is easy, he's all-in, back up the flop.

Den: 100% agree, this is a TD call at the time of the incident. My preference is to enforce betting discipline that's why I tend to favor a call, especially because neither the bettor or any of the observers spoke up to defend the action.

But 100% recognize the basis for your ruling it a raise.

[Nick C]

Ralph,

Reading Mike's reply only confirms what I've said about this rule, and so many others that leave the "door open" so to speak, for a ruling that might not be in the best interest of the game. I do understand why you feel the way you do. However, I believe that changing the "proper board" is a far worse choice than adjusting the call, to an unclear all-in wager.

Pretty good debate, I'd say.

[BillM16]

The button and the 8 others that heard the all-in declaration had an obligation to stop the dealer from bringing the flop before the UTG had a chance to call.  This is a perfect example of why the TDA has strongly recommended the use of an all-in button.  The proper use of the all-in button provides a tool to avoid these errors and confirmation that a player is all-in.  I agree with those that see this as a call - I hate the idea undoing the flop.  If the end result is an advantage to the UTG, the button has only himself to blame.

[Nick C]

Hey Bill,

It's always good when we agree. There is one point I'd like to mention about the all-in button. Five years ago, when I first heard of the all-in button, I thought it was a great idea. I asked for some feedback from TDA members that used the button and I received none. The biggest drawback is the fact that the all-in button is controlled by the dealer...so, in our current situation, the dealer was unaware of the all-in...so he would not have used the all-in button anyway. 

Back to square one! Push all your chips forward or declare ALL IN !!!!!

[BillM16]

The biggest drawback is the fact that the all-in button is controlled by the dealer...so, in our current situation, the dealer was unaware of the all-in...so he would not have used the all-in button anyway. 

Back to square one! Push all your chips forward or declare ALL IN !!!!!

True.  However, the difference here is this:  The all-in player would know that the dealer didn't hear his declaration because he didn't receive the all-in button.  In that case, the all-in player wouldn't have a leg to stand on.  It would clearly be a call.