Author Topic: Dealer doesn't hear verbal all-in  (Read 14960 times)

BROOKS

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Dealer doesn't hear verbal all-in
« on: September 27, 2016, 12:11:39 AM »
I've been reading a lot of posts on the forum for the past week or so and haven't come across this, so I apologize if it has already been addressed.

Blinds 1k/2k
UTG raises to 5k
Folds to the button who throws out a 5k chip.
SB and BB both fold
Dealer puts out flop, and button says "hey I was all in"
The dealer did not hear the all in, and UTG in seat 10 also says he didn't hear it. The rest of the table, all 8 of them, say they heard it.
Button is in seat 7 directly across from seat 10.
Both blinds say they only folded because the button was all in.
 
I feel this falls under Rule #2 players are responsible for making their intentions clear, and Rule #37 A) if simultaneously pushing out chips with verbal declaration , a clear and reasonable verbal declaration takes precedence, otherwise the chips play.

I would like to add that about 30 minutes  prior to this, there was almost a premature turn, but the players made the dealer aware in time. To which I brought up the reasoning behind why the dealer pats the table before burning and turning.
I feel that since all 8 players apparently heard the verbal all in, all of them and the button himself had ample opportunity to speak up as the dealer pats the table, burns the card, puts the 3 flop cards down one at a time before flipping. Yet, no one did. I do not believe all 8 players heard. Possibly the blinds, but this button player was a regular and friends with everyone.

Curious as to what others would do in this situation

All in stands and flop is reshuffled

Or

Call of 5k stands and board stays
« Last Edit: September 28, 2016, 11:10:47 PM by BROOKS »

Nick C

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Re: Dealer doesn't hear verbal all-in
« Reply #1 on: September 27, 2016, 04:28:14 AM »
Brooks,

 I'm not sure I understand why you are questioning any wrong doing. We would always prefer the announcement of an all-in player, however, There is no rule that insists or regulates all-in declaration. The use of an all-in button is encouraged, but not mandatory.
 In your example, the all-in player called the full amount of the UTG raise...both blinds folded...just burn and turn the flop, turn and river.
 Ideally, the player or dealer would announce the all-in, but unless I'm missing something, two players remain, cards are tabled and the dealer proceeds until the showdown.
My answer: Call of 5K stands and board stays.

GreggPath

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Re: Dealer doesn't hear verbal all-in
« Reply #2 on: September 27, 2016, 04:40:18 AM »
Brooks,

 I'm not sure I understand why you are questioning any wrong doing. We would always prefer the announcement of an all-in player, however, There is no rule that insists or regulates all-in declaration. The use of an all-in button is encouraged, but not mandatory.
 In your example, the all-in player called the full amount of the UTG raise...both blinds folded...just burn and turn the flop, turn and river.
 Ideally, the player or dealer would announce the all-in, but unless I'm missing something, two players remain, cards are tabled and the dealer proceeds until the showdown.
My answer: Call of 5K stands and board stays.

I believe he is saying that the button had chips behind. He announced "all-in" but only threw out the 5k to match the bet before him. Maybe he had a large stack of chips and didn't want to push them all forward if he didn't have it.

Nick C

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Re: Dealer doesn't hear verbal all-in
« Reply #3 on: September 27, 2016, 05:04:08 AM »
GreggPath,

 You could be right. I just didn't see it that way. Thanks. Still having a tough time sorting this one out. ???

Guillaume Gleize

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Re: Dealer doesn't hear verbal all-in
« Reply #4 on: September 27, 2016, 06:47:35 AM »
I would add that for me the witness of the dealer is stronger than 8 or 9 players! That's the #1 rule when you enter my poker room: "Here you are gonna be ruled by human dealers, floors and TDs that are gonna make decisions - What you think about their decisions do not matter - Accept this fact before sitting and you are welcome!"

I use to say to my players that my dealers are not only here to deal, they are MY EARS AND EYES (and my dealers love that)!
So it was the player's responsability to act clearly!

5K call - Flop stand

Max D

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Re: Dealer doesn't hear verbal all-in
« Reply #5 on: September 27, 2016, 08:59:49 AM »
I would add that for me the witness of the dealer is stronger than 8 or 9 players! That's the #1 rule when you enter my poker room: "Here you are gonna be ruled by human dealers, floors and TDs that are gonna make decisions - What you think about their decisions do not matter - Accept this fact before sitting and you are welcome!"

I use to say to my players that my dealers are not only here to deal, they are MY EARS AND EYES (and my dealers love that)!
So it was the player's responsability to act clearly!

5K call - Flop stand
The way the scenario is described I agree with Guillaume.
Max D
Less talking, more dealing.

mooredog

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Re: Dealer doesn't hear verbal all-in
« Reply #6 on: September 27, 2016, 10:50:32 AM »
I have dealt with this more than once and have ruled it a call since the dealer and some players did not hear the all in declaration. It comes under the "making actions clear" rule and if the chips had been shoved out there would be no problem. My guess is the blinds may have folded to the 5k bet anyway but if not, oh well. I have told soft spoken players to make their chips do the talking.

BROOKS

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Re: Dealer doesn't hear verbal all-in
« Reply #7 on: September 27, 2016, 01:21:32 PM »
Yes the button had chips behind. Apparently said all-in while tossing out the 5k chip.
I ruled that the flop stands and that they are responsible for making their actions clear. If you're going to put out an amount in chips and verbally say something else, you run the risk of it being ruled other than what you intended if you are not clear.

Thanks for the responses

Brian Vickers

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Re: Dealer doesn't hear verbal all-in
« Reply #8 on: September 28, 2016, 09:14:45 AM »
If I have 8 players (who should be unbiased as they have no vestment in the hand) saying that a player announced all-in, then I'm backing the flop out and announcing the player all-in.  What the UTG claims he heard or didn't hear is hard to take at face value as he has an interest in the outcome of the hand.  IMO, it's an early flop and I'm going to follow the appropriate procedure if UTG calls the all-in.

Nick C

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Re: Dealer doesn't hear verbal all-in
« Reply #9 on: September 28, 2016, 02:39:43 PM »
The player that said he was all-in was lying...correct? If so, I don't see any reason to retract the "proper flop." Players and the dealer should have been aware of whether a player is all-in or not. Once it was realized that the player was not all-in...the action would continue with betting as usual. A penalty could be enforced after (if the player were not eliminated) but beyond that, why would we re-deal the flop?

 The next time I read a confusing question, I'm going to keep digging until I understand what really happened. My first reply reflected my lack of understanding the question...and frankly, it's still a bit foggy!

BROOKS

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Re: Dealer doesn't hear verbal all-in
« Reply #10 on: September 28, 2016, 11:01:06 PM »
How am I supposed to know if the button was lying or not?
He alleged that when he threw out the 5k chip he also said all in. Dealer didn't hear, so as soon as the 2 blinds folded, dealer put out the flop thinking action was complete and button had called the 5k raise.
Soon as the flop comes out button yells out "hey I was all in"
The question was, did it matter if other players said they heard the verbal all in, especially the blinds that said it's the reason they folded.
I really don't see how this is a confusing question.


As I said before I believe this falls under Rule #2 players are responsible for making their actions clear, and Rule #37 A) if simultaneously pushing out chips with verbal declaration , a clear and reasonable verbal declaration takes precedence, otherwise the chips play.

I declared the 5k chip with an alleged unclear verbal statement to be just a call and resumed with the hand.
It could definitely be angle shooting, to wait til the flop comes out and say that you said you were all in.
I'm never going to know if he really said it or not, but he had the rest of the players trying to convince me that he did.


« Last Edit: September 28, 2016, 11:08:45 PM by BROOKS »

Nick C

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Re: Dealer doesn't hear verbal all-in
« Reply #11 on: September 29, 2016, 07:13:15 PM »
Hey Brooks...I finally got it! :) :) Funny we came to the same conclusion even though it was for different reasons. I do believe that the Button should have made his all-in more clear. He also would have a responsibility to stop the dealer from putting the flop out.
 
Like you said, it would definitely open the door for angle shooting. No way that flop would ever be redealt in my game.

Sorry it took so long to understand your original question. ::)

Uniden32

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Re: Dealer doesn't hear verbal all-in
« Reply #12 on: September 30, 2016, 11:18:37 AM »
I suggest everyone reread Brian's reply, he's spot on.
Ralph Brandt
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Dave Miller

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Re: Dealer doesn't hear verbal all-in
« Reply #13 on: September 30, 2016, 11:26:26 AM »
If I have 8 players (who should be unbiased as they have no vestment in the hand) ...
But those other players DO have an interest. Eliminate competition.
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown.
But how much does it cost to knock on wood?

MikeB

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Re: Dealer doesn't hear verbal all-in
« Reply #14 on: September 30, 2016, 11:52:06 AM »
Interesting case, and nice range of opinion on how it might be ruled. This is 100% a judgment call by the TD. More often than not I'd probably rule this a call, not because I'm convinced the guy didn't say "all-in", though if he did it was at best not clear and he nor anyone else spoke up when the dealer rapped the table...

...but more because I don't like just tossing out a 5k in this case. Give me: 1) an all-in button; or 2) an unmistakable declaration; 3) an all-in gesture, or best of all 4) pushing your stack forward.

His action is just marginally defined and not defended in this case so I'd tend to rule it a call and hope that instills more discipline next time.