Author Topic: Undercall multiway clarifications  (Read 13514 times)

Guillaume Gleize

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Undercall multiway clarifications
« on: September 15, 2016, 04:10:42 AM »
Hello,
here are two cases of undercall please:

CASE A)

Blinds 10000-20000
1 SB 10.000
2 BB 20.000
4 Fold
5 Fold
6 Says "12.000" (no push - no other word)

---> Player 6 must pay the full BB amount right? First because no one is suppose to ignore the amount of the current BB plus the "Folds" are not changing the BB opening bet into a multiway pot situation right?

CASE B)

Blinds 3000-6000
1 SB 3.000
2 BB 6.000
4 Fold
5 Fold
6 All-In 55.000
7 Fold
8 Says "12.000" (no push - no other word)

---> Following TDA rule 39B: Player 8 is facing a multiway pot (because of the BB plus the all-in, not because of the Folds) so player 8 can forfeit the underbet and fold at TD discretion right?

TY in advance
GG







« Last Edit: September 15, 2016, 04:38:54 AM by Guillaume Gleize »

Uniden32

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Re: Undercall multiway clarifications
« Reply #1 on: September 15, 2016, 08:43:40 AM »
Correct on both counts.
Ralph Brandt
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Nick C

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Re: Undercall multiway clarifications
« Reply #2 on: September 15, 2016, 10:56:58 AM »
Hello Guillaume,

 Case A...you are correct, unless of course Player 6 happens to be all-in.

 Case B...could be a bit more complex because obviously Player 8 is unaware of the all-in wager of 55,000 from Player 6. What reason could you possibly give to support any other reason? This is when the floor needs to consider the intent of Player 8...or why he was unaware of the intervening raise. I know what the rules are, and I would have no problem insisting that Player 8 must either surrender his 12,000 or call. This would depend on the "reputation" of the player or other factors.

MikeB

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Re: Undercall multiway clarifications
« Reply #3 on: September 15, 2016, 11:46:32 AM »
G: Thanks for the great case.

I think you were at the 2013 Summit when this rule was debated and adopted? Case A is clearly a call of 20k as you point out.

Case B is the only case where the TD has latitude to let the player leave the in and fold. But as the rule is currently written, that's not a requirement. There was some discussion in 2013 that if the underbet was "gross" (i.e. less than 50% or less than 20% etc. of the amount to call) that might be an automatic trigger of a right to leave it in and fold... but no agreement was reached for any further modification and it was left as is. So you have discretion in Case B.

One key is that the idea of this rule really is to give a player some protection (at TDs discretion) against a gross misunderstanding. Perhaps the more important message is that you have no such protection when facing the opening bet or in heads-up play.

Guillaume Gleize

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Re: Undercall multiway clarifications
« Reply #4 on: September 16, 2016, 03:51:34 AM »
TY all for the clarifications!

I realise that:

- THE BB IS AN OPENING BET

- THE FOLDS ARE NOT PART OF MULTIWAY POT

CASE C) is clear now:

At the turn:
1 check
2 bets 55.000
3 fold
4 fold
5 fold
6 says "12.000" (no push - no word)

---> Facing an opening bet, player 6 must complete to full call at 55.000

Right?



Nick C

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Re: Undercall multiway clarifications
« Reply #5 on: September 16, 2016, 08:31:59 AM »
Guillaume,

 I would treat this the same as Your Case B from your original post. Because the action is NOT head to head, and it appears to be a gross misunderstanding. I might even consider allowing Player 6 all options. I could also support a decision that would force Player 6 to forfeit his undercall by folding, or completing the bet to 55,000.

 I believe Mike said, this would offer some protection for a player in the event of a gross misunderstanding.

 In short, I believe that forcing Player 6 to complete his bet to 55,000 is too harsh.

Guillaume Gleize

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Re: Undercall multiway clarifications
« Reply #6 on: September 16, 2016, 06:05:37 PM »
So now I'm completely lost! Because it's facing an opening bet !?!

I mean I agree that in 5% of all the different poker cases the TD will make is own ruling "at discretion" and "in the best interest of the game" etc ... But we managers AND the players need to have CLEAR PERMANENT RULES for let say 95% of the poker situations!

So i thought here we were inside the TDA clear Opening bet situation? Or do you mean that all the "Folds" make the pot becoming multiway? WOW!

Or is it because of the amounts? OK so let's try this:

At the turn:
1 check
2 bets 20.000
3 fold
4 fold
5 fold
6 says "12.000" (no push - no word)

---> Facing an opening bet, player 6 must complete to full call at 20.000

Right? Or does the folds make it becoming a multiway pot? (That the reason I did place them: To be sure we all understand what is really an OPENING BET?)
« Last Edit: September 16, 2016, 06:14:38 PM by Guillaume Gleize »

Nick C

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Re: Undercall multiway clarifications
« Reply #7 on: September 16, 2016, 07:39:22 PM »
Guillaume,

 Your last post might make a difference because 12,000 is more than 50% of the 20,000 wagered. Therefore it may not be deemed a "gross" misunderstanding.

 Maybe Mike Bishop can clear this up for you. I can only tell you how I would handle each situation as you described it.

 For those that often turn to Robert's Rules...Section: BETTING AND RAISING #13 (in part)

....if you are unaware that the pot has been raised, you may withdraw that money and reconsider your action, provided that no one else has acted after you....

GreggPath

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Re: Undercall multiway clarifications
« Reply #8 on: September 17, 2016, 06:30:54 AM »
Life would be so much easier if players just paid attention to the action  ::)

Uniden32

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Re: Undercall multiway clarifications
« Reply #9 on: September 17, 2016, 08:17:20 AM »
Your last post might make a difference because 12,000 is more than 50% of the 20,000 wagered. Therefore it may not be deemed a "gross" misunderstanding.

Nick,

While I don't believe this particular scenario to be covered by gross misunderstanding, I'm not sure why 12k being more than 50% of the 20k would be relevant even when determining gross misunderstanding.



Guillaume,

For me it's an easy decision, the player has to call the full 20k.
Ralph Brandt
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Dave Miller

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Re: Undercall multiway clarifications
« Reply #10 on: September 17, 2016, 09:08:50 AM »
Life would be so much easier if players just paid attention to the action  ::)
True, but can you really expect or even wish this?  After all, sometimes a dealer isn't fully focused and mistakes happen because of that.
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown.
But how much does it cost to knock on wood?

Nick C

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Re: Undercall multiway clarifications
« Reply #11 on: September 17, 2016, 09:14:02 AM »
Hey Gregg...I finally agree with you 100%... :)


Ralph...I agree with you, too. The examples are clear. I can more easily justify forcing a player to complete his short bet (12,000) because it was 60% of the actual raise (20,000).

The other example was different. The raise was 55,000...so the short call 12,000 (or errant raise attempt) was less than 25%. Gross misunderstanding?,,,you make the call.

MikeB

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Re: Undercall multiway clarifications
« Reply #12 on: September 17, 2016, 01:53:26 PM »
So now I'm completely lost! Because it's facing an opening bet !?!

So i thought here we were inside the TDA clear Opening bet situation? Or do you mean that all the "Folds" make the pot becoming multiway? WOW!

Or is it because of the amounts? OK so let's try this:

At the turn:
1 check
2 bets 20.000
3 fold
4 fold
5 fold
6 says "12.000" (no push - no word)

---> Facing an opening bet, player 6 must complete to full call at 20.000

Right? Or does the folds make it becoming a multiway pot? (That the reason I did place them: To be sure we all understand what is really an OPENING BET?)
G: When facing the opening bet it doesn't matter whether the hand is multi-way at that point or not. Nor does it matter by what % the opening bet is under-called. The 20k is clearly the opener here, and 6 underbets it with 12k, so it's a mandatory full call by player 6.

The more interesting point is that some might construe 1's check as the opener? Unlikely, but wouldn't hurt to clarify it. Thanks as always for the great examples.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2016, 01:58:40 PM by MikeB »

Nick C

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Re: Undercall multiway clarifications
« Reply #13 on: September 17, 2016, 02:50:10 PM »
Guillaume,

 There you are...you heard it from Mike. The undercall MUST be brought up to the full raise, even though that was not the intent of Player 6. :o

 My suggestion to all players is to forget about announcing anything...just push your bet forward, this way you will not be liable (at least I don't think you would) for the full amount. Example Player 1 check...Player 2 Bet 20,000 Player 3 Fold Player 4 Fold, Player 5 Fold, Player 6 "pushes 12,000" forward. He might be forced to surrender his 12,000 but I believe he will not be liable to add another 8,000...Mike, am I right?

Nick C

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Re: Undercall multiway clarifications
« Reply #14 on: September 17, 2016, 06:26:45 PM »
Mike,

 I don't understand why you replied on a different post, then directed us back here? Anyway, my earlier reply was, in part, based on what you said earlier, and I'll quote: "There was some discussion in 2013 that if the underbet was "gross" (i.e. less than 50% or less than 20% etc. of the amount to call) that might be an automatic trigger of a right to leave it in and fold... but no agreement was reached for any further modification and it was left as is. So you have discretion in Case B."
Am I missing something?