Author Topic: Blinds not increased at start of new level... when to correct, when to let stand  (Read 11387 times)

GreggPath

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This happens in my home game more often than it should and I couldn't find any rule on the matter so I thought I'd ask the experts.

If, during the first hand of a round, the SB and BB put out the previous level's blinds. The dealer does not catch it and cards are dealt. Would this fall into the substantial action rule? In other words, would the blinds be fixed only if there is substantial action and, if not, the hand will continue with the old blinds? And would the ruling change if it wasn't the first hand of a round?
« Last Edit: June 29, 2016, 12:17:45 PM by MikeB »

Dave Miller

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Re: Blinds not increased at start of round
« Reply #1 on: June 29, 2016, 06:18:21 AM »
Glossing over the TDA rules, I don't see a rule that covers this, except Rules 1 and 2.

Significant action would be a raise followed by any action. Calls and/or folds are not significant. It sounds like you're asking it merely posting the wrong blinds and dealing cards is significant. Absolutely not.

Here's how I would rule on this:

If the error is not discovered before the flop or significant action, the remainder of the hand plays at the prior level.

Otherwise, the action will be backed up. First, the blinds are corrected. Callers will have the option to call the correct amount, or fold, getting their chips back. They will NOT have the option to raise (unless the action comes back around to them). If the raise amount is more than the correct BB, it will stand, or be increased to a valid raise. If the raise amount is equal to or less than on BB, it is assumed that he is first putting out the call amount, and hasn't declared his raise amount. He will have the option to raise to any amount.

Bottom line, players need to be aware of the action and blinds, and must not rely upon the dealer to catch mistakes before the action begins. This comes from Rule 2, Player Responsibilities: "... follow the action ... speak up if they see a mistake ..."
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Brian Vickers

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Re: Blinds not increased at start of round
« Reply #2 on: June 29, 2016, 07:46:44 AM »
Posting the wrong blinds does not constitute significant action.  Many times players will try to stick out the previous round's blinds and say "my blinds were out" as if that stops the blinds from going up on that hand.  Significant action is two actions where one involves chips or three total actions.  Similarly to Dave, I would use "rule 1" in most cases where until I've got both significant action AND a raise I'm correcting all bets, otherwise I allow other players a shot at limping in for the previous Big Blind size.

BillM16

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Re: Blinds not increased at start of round
« Reply #3 on: June 29, 2016, 07:59:02 AM »
Posting the wrong blinds does not constitute significant action.  Many times players will try to stick out the previous round's blinds and say "my blinds were out" as if that stops the blinds from going up on that hand.  Significant action is two actions where one involves chips or three total actions.  Similarly to Dave, I would use "rule 1" in most cases where until I've got both significant action AND a raise I'm correcting all bets, otherwise I allow other players a shot at limping in for the previous Big Blind size.

Interesting first point Brian: I think including that exception in the 2017 Rules is a good idea - posting blinds does not constitute significant action.  On your second point, I would respectfully disagree.  As you noted, any three actions is officially ruled as significant action - which would include folds and checks.  I'd stick to the rule and increase the blinds on the next hand.  I would certainly disagree with the idea of correcting bets unless there was a raise.

Regards,
B~

Nick C

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Re: Blinds not increased at start of round
« Reply #4 on: June 29, 2016, 09:28:50 AM »
Gregg,

 There are rules that cover your original question. One of them is in a rule set by Chuck Ferry, who is an expert when it comes to simple, logical rules for poker. He is a published author and his books are compact and loaded with great knowledge. I'll give you an example, if I can remember: Insufficient wager...even when followed by substantial action the bet must return to the original bettor (who wagered the wrong amount), and it must be corrected. The bettor can not raise or alter the proper wager and he can not fold! I'm not sure how this would apply to other players that followed with the incorrect amount, but I'll see what I can find out. I'm sure the rule about a bet "changing" will probably be applied to the other players.

GreggPath

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Re: Blinds not increased at start of round
« Reply #5 on: June 29, 2016, 10:17:07 AM »
Quote
Significant action would be a raise followed by any action. Calls and/or folds are not significant.

Is that a mistake? I was under the impression (based on the rule 35A) that two calls is substantial action. 

Quote
Posting the wrong blinds does not constitute significant action.

My original question was unclear. I meant if the wrong blinds were posted and then there was substantial action (UTG calls/folds, UTG+1 calls/folds).

And, Nick, thanks for that info, but I need a ruling based on TDA rules.

So, if I am reading the comments correctly, I believe I am ruling on this correctly. If the wrong blinds are posted and there is substantial action (two players either call or raise), then the hand should continue with the wrong blinds. Otherwise, return all chips and have the blinds post correctly before proceeding.

What about a scenario where you are mid-way through a blind level and this happens? My house game involves a lot of drinking and a rotating dealer so things like this happen a lot.

Nick C

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Re: Blinds not increased at start of round
« Reply #6 on: June 29, 2016, 11:55:33 AM »
Gregg,

 I would say, based on your solution to the original problem, that substantial action would "trump" any other rule. Finish the incorrect betting round. As far as the remaining rounds...that's a good question. For tournament poker I would correct it to the proper level.

 I'm not following your definition of substantial action, two calls must follow a bet or raise so it would be substantial because it's at least three actions. A bet and a call, or a bet and anything is substantial...isn't it? Any three actions even check, check, check. Or any two actions involving at least one player using chips. Unless it's been changed again. That's how I read it.

GreggPath

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Re: Blinds not increased at start of round
« Reply #7 on: June 29, 2016, 12:10:48 PM »
I'm not following your definition of substantial action, two calls must follow a bet or raise so it would be substantial because it's at least three actions. A bet and a call, or a bet and anything is substantial...isn't it? Any three actions even check, check, check. Or any two actions involving at least one player using chips. Unless it's been changed again. That's how I read it.

I think we're saying the same thing. The rule reads:

Quote
Substantial Action is either A) any 2 actions in turn, at least one of which puts chips in the pot (i.e. any 2
actions except 2 checks or 2 folds)

(I'm only looking at the "2 actions" scenario since three actions is always substantial). So Call-Call, Call-Raise, Raise-Call, and Raise-Raise are all substantial. Since we're talking pre-flop, there can be no "bet" since the BB is the bet.

MikeB

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From memory, the subject of "when underbets stand" was a subject of discussion at the 2015 Summit, although a rule was not drafted on this topic in 2015. Again from memory I recall the consensus was that an underbet would stand once there was substantial action on it, as opposed to "it would be corrected anytime on the current betting round".

Perhaps should be re-visited at the 2017 Summit.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2016, 12:18:04 PM by MikeB »

GreggPath

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From memory, the subject of "when underbets stand" was a subject of discussion at the 2015 Summit, although a rule was not drafted on this topic in 2015. Again from memory I recall the consensus was that an underbet would stand once there was substantial action on it, as opposed to "it would be corrected anytime on the current betting round".

Perhaps should be re-visited at the 2017 Summit.

I think there should be a rule. There is nothing in the rulebook to cover it and it does happen, especially in games without properly trained dealers.

Nick C

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Gregg,

 I can only disagree with your call, call, call pre-flop. Call, call is all that is necessary.

BillM16

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Re: Blinds not increased at start of round
« Reply #11 on: July 01, 2016, 06:22:42 AM »

Quote
Substantial Action is either A) any 2 actions in turn, at least one of which puts chips in the pot (i.e. any 2
actions except 2 checks or 2 folds)

(I'm only looking at the "2 actions" scenario since three actions is always substantial). So Call-Call, Call-Raise, Raise-Call, and Raise-Raise are all substantial. Since we're talking pre-flop, there can be no "bet" since the BB is the bet.

Preflop, there is also Call & Fold, Raise & Fold, Fold & Call, and Fold & Raise.  Only one of the two actions must put chips in the pot.

Regards,
B~
« Last Edit: July 01, 2016, 06:27:07 AM by BillM16 »

GreggPath

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Re: Blinds not increased at start of round
« Reply #12 on: July 01, 2016, 11:58:18 AM »

Quote
Substantial Action is either A) any 2 actions in turn, at least one of which puts chips in the pot (i.e. any 2
actions except 2 checks or 2 folds)

(I'm only looking at the "2 actions" scenario since three actions is always substantial). So Call-Call, Call-Raise, Raise-Call, and Raise-Raise are all substantial. Since we're talking pre-flop, there can be no "bet" since the BB is the bet.

Preflop, there is also Call & Fold, Raise & Fold, Fold & Call, and Fold & Raise.  Only one of the two actions must put chips in the pot.

Regards,
B~

Thank you for clearing that up. All this time we've been discussing it, I hadn't noticed the rule said that only one of the actions must put chips in.

Nick C

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Gregg,

 Don't feel bad about the misunderstanding. At the 2011 TDA Summit the rule was defined as two actions (both) involving chips. Or any three actions. This was discussed at great length on Day 1, and then re-confirmed on Day 2. About two months later, Version 2 was released and it was changed to what it is today. two actions with at least one involving chips. A big difference.

 If you'd like to view the 2011 TDA Summit, you can do so on YOUTUBE.