Author Topic: Counting Bets  (Read 5507 times)

DutchTD076

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Counting Bets
« on: May 31, 2016, 03:33:28 PM »
Hi all,

Big discussion with my colleagues here, would appreciate some insights on this matter.  :o

When a player makes a non-verbal bet that can't be "read", should the dealer start counting immediately or should he wait until an opponent asks for a count?

In line with the situation above, when a player makes a non-verbal bet that can be "read", should the dealer announce the amount or just say bet?

Regards, T.

Nick C

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Re: Counting Bets
« Reply #1 on: May 31, 2016, 06:54:59 PM »
DutchTD076,

If I may answer your first question, without referring to a rule but based on many years of dealing: Wait for an opponent that is contemplating a possible call, or raise, to ask. The reason is very simple, in my opinion. Imagine counting massive amounts of wagered chips, only to have all players fold? It would take too much time.

 My answer to your next question, especially when the non-verbal bet can be easily read, either would be acceptable. I have no objection when a dealer announces an obvious bet amount. Player A bets a single black chip, dealer says "100 to call." Perfect, if you ask me. Saying nothing can only slow down a game. "How much for me to call, dealer?" "100 is the bet."

That's how I teach my student dealers. It helps move the game along nice and smooth.

DutchTD076

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Re: Counting Bets
« Reply #2 on: June 01, 2016, 04:56:14 AM »
First of all, thanks for answering Nick. Despite my respect for your level of experience and seniority, I don't agree on all points.

Imagine counting massive amounts of wagered chips, only to have all players fold? It would take too much time.
I teach my students to start counting when a player contemplates a call/raise, if and when the player decides to muck his cards while you are in the process of counting, leave the counting for what it is and move on with the game. Therefor there is no time loss, you can only gain time in my opinion.

I have no objection when a dealer announces an obvious bet amount.
It feels strange/wrong to me to handle a bet/raise differently based on its obviousness. Not only does it go against my believes that all players (and with it their bets/raises/calls) should be handled equally, but it would also encourage players to make unclear bets and gather massive amounts of chips with a small denomination.

The actual discussion here goes as follows:
Some of my colleagues say that it is "absolutely not done" to touch a players all-in bet until his opponent asks for a count. The reason they give for that sounds very strange to me but maybe it makes sense to you.
They say that when a players shoves all-in, the opponent might read "around 10k", what would be a reason to fold.
But when the dealer starts counting, it turns out to be 6,9k what would be a reason to call.

In my opinion there are two different approaches to this.
From the players perspective, of course he should ask the dealer for a count, he is responsible for his own game.
From the casino/dealers perspective, why should we cooperate in this smoke and mirrors game? Just state the bet amount, regardless its obviousness. (Only when the player is contemplating a raise/call of course)


Nick C

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Re: Counting Bets
« Reply #3 on: June 01, 2016, 08:04:52 AM »
DutchTD076,

 Unfortunately, your teaching does not comply with TDA Rule #42 Accepted Action. Which I am not a fan of either. My answers don't fully comply either...so I guess you can use rule #1 and do it your way.

Max D

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Re: Counting Bets
« Reply #4 on: June 01, 2016, 09:44:14 AM »
I agree with Nick, from my own experience and also as a player in Vegas, I usually see simple bets announced by the dealer, and larger more unclear bet not counted until a player asks or his contemplating a call.

Max
Max D
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Brian Vickers

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Re: Counting Bets
« Reply #5 on: June 15, 2016, 09:29:47 AM »
While it has long been the standard not to count all-in bets until asked, it has become more commonplace to not announce any bets until a player asks.  I agree that the best thing for pace of game is as others have said which is to announce simple bets, (maybe 1-4 chips) but anything more just say "Bet" until a player in turn asks for a count.  I also take "player looks at chips and you can see he's trying to count them" as my indicator to announce the amount to the player as well.