Author Topic: seat open after not realizing it was a split pot  (Read 7627 times)

The Riddler

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seat open after not realizing it was a split pot
« on: May 19, 2016, 04:53:12 AM »
Hi everybody!

NLH Tournament Day 2, 29 Players of 715 in the game.

Situation:

Player A Allin, player B call  A6 vs. A8...board is split pot but nobody realized it and dealer give the chips player B.
3 minutes later Player A realized the mistake and asks floor about. Floor, dealer and player at that table can easily reconstruct the hand and everybody agree it was a mistake.
Floor decision is player A is seat open.
So player A didnīt lose the hand but is seat open.
Question:

What you do in this situation and which rule you aplied?

Thanks much!

Dave Miller

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Re: seat open after not realizing it was a split pot
« Reply #1 on: May 19, 2016, 05:00:26 AM »
While it is very unfortunate, the player is out.

TDA Rule 21:
Quote
21: Disputed Pots
The right to dispute a finished hand ends when a new hand begins (see Rule 22). If a hand finishes during a break, the right to dispute ends 1 minute after the pot is awarded.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2016, 05:03:26 AM by Dave Miller »
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown.
But how much does it cost to knock on wood?

The Riddler

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Re: seat open after not realizing it was a split pot
« Reply #2 on: May 19, 2016, 06:11:49 AM »
Thanks Dave,

i agree that Rule 21 is here.

What is the importance of Rule 1...

1:  Floor Decisions
The best interest of the game and fairness are top priorities in decision making. Unusual circumstances occasionally dictate that decisions in the interest of fairness take priority over technical rules. Floor decisions are final.

A player loose no hand and is seat open.
The first priority of TD is fairness of the game. If i take Rule 21, i let Rule 1 fall?!

Steff0111

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Re: seat open after not realizing it was a split pot
« Reply #3 on: May 19, 2016, 07:01:21 AM »
Rule 1 can only take place during the hand.
After awarding the pot and starting a new hand the TD canīt/shouldnīt do anything.
And three minutes are much too late- probably the next hand is almost over...

Dave Miller

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Re: seat open after not realizing it was a split pot
« Reply #4 on: May 19, 2016, 08:12:30 AM »
I think Rule 1 is most useful when there isn't any clear-cut rule to cover a situation, or where a second rule seems to contradict the first rule.

In this situation, Rule 21 is clear.

Further, there is Rule 13B, protecting your hand.

On the other hand (now that I think about it), there's also Rule 12:
Quote
12: Declarations. Cards Speak at Showdown
Cards speak to determine the winner. Verbal declarations of hand value are not binding at showdown but deliberately miscalling a hand may be penalized. Any player in the hand or not, should speak up if he thinks a mistake is being made in reading hands or awarding the pot.
That last part is important.

If the "winner" admits that he knew he was being awarded the pot in error, and didn't speak up, then I might invoke Rule 1 to reverse things and reseat that player. But that would be a hard decision to make if he only appears to act guilty rather than admitting it.
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown.
But how much does it cost to knock on wood?

Brian Vickers

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Re: seat open after not realizing it was a split pot
« Reply #5 on: May 19, 2016, 12:55:40 PM »
Disputes must be raised prior to the green button being pressed on the next hand.  In a case like this, use of Rule 1 would be if the green button may have been pressed and the cards dealt but there wasn't significant action yet and the player said "wait, that should have been split!"  While the black and white rule says he's out, you can use Rule 1 to say it's in the best interest of the game if we can fix it before anyone is actually affected.  In your example "3 mins later" but who knows how many of those chips are still in Player B's stack now, he may have been blinded or anted off for 1-2 hands, may have called a bet, lost a hand, won a hand... too much action has occurred to the point we can make any kind of reasonable amends here.  Final ruling = Player A is eliminated.

The Riddler

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Re: seat open after not realizing it was a split pot
« Reply #6 on: May 20, 2016, 04:00:19 AM »
Thanks much!

Dave: yes the"winner" knew it was a split, another player at the table to...but no one speak because the other players were hurrying up wile blinds raising.

My thoughts about it are that we built a monster system of rules. TD are like gods in a casino. Some of them are acting like that, too.
A TD can pick up any rule to prove a player that he is wrong!
Today I take 21, 12 and 1 if needed.
But we should not forget something...Poker & Fairness is the most important thing. Fairness has not died by pressing a button! Our ruling system is too big and much technical.
I think if a player didn`t lose the last hand, can`t be seat open becouse a dealer pressed a button :-) that is not fair.
If it isn`t fair the rule is wrong and we dond`t needed in that form. Everybody a good day and night :-)

Uniden32

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Re: seat open after not realizing it was a split pot
« Reply #7 on: May 22, 2016, 07:26:51 AM »
I'm with Brian on this one.

If there wasn't substantial action prior to being called over, or the player involved hasn't played a hand and the pot can be reasonably recreated, I'm going to split the pot, regardless of the "green button" being pushed.  It's just the right thing to do and I'll invoke Rule 1.

If any hands have already been completed after the fact, I'm more than likely going to eliminate the player.  Apologize for the dealer error, and if pressed, appease the player with a free lunch or future buy-in if necessary.
Ralph Brandt
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Isle Casino - Pompano Beach, FL
@uniden32

Nick C

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Re: seat open after not realizing it was a split pot
« Reply #8 on: May 23, 2016, 09:05:12 AM »
Uniden,

 How would you rule if a player mucked his hand at showdown, with a nut straight on board? Would your decision be different in a tournament? I'm asking because we've had discussions on this in the past and I was surprised when the majority leaned in the direction of: the player should know what he's doing...therefore his hand is dead! I was in the minority, (by a big margarin) when I suggested the pot be split.

 It's a little twist to the original post but there are similarities.

Uniden32

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Re: seat open after not realizing it was a split pot
« Reply #9 on: May 23, 2016, 09:59:40 AM »
I see this as a dealer error, more than a player error.

I'm with you Nick.  I am going to protect the all-in player's equity, and award the player their portion of the split pot even though they don't have any cards.
Ralph Brandt
Tournament Coordinator
Isle Casino - Pompano Beach, FL
@uniden32

chet

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Re: seat open after not realizing it was a split pot
« Reply #10 on: May 23, 2016, 02:42:31 PM »
I don't understand much of the reasoning behind many of the posts on this topic.  There are at least 3 rules that apply as was pointed out by Dave Miller in addition to the all important Rule #1. 

Why are we no longer holding players responsible for their actions, lack of action or failure to follow procedures?

There are just too many to list and others have done so anyway, so I don't need to restate them here. 

I see the "responsibility" for following procedures and rules split 50/50 between the dealer and the players (as a group).  The failure of one does no absolve the other to "make things right".

Therefore in this instance, while it is awful and unfortunate, I believe that the all in player is out.  If the house can provide some form of gratuity or compensation that is great, but it is not required by the rules.

Had the all in player brought things up timely (before the next deal), then I would certainly support going back and splitting the pot, but alas he did not, so I fail to see any applicable recourse.

I cannot support invoking Rule #1 since (as has been stated) there are several TDA rules that should be been brought up which were not.

Chet

Nick C

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Re: seat open after not realizing it was a split pot
« Reply #11 on: May 23, 2016, 06:38:53 PM »
Going back to Riddler's original question, I believe the time that transpires is key to this decision. If recognized immediately, I see no problem splitting the pot. If the player were already dealt out, and the next hand is in progress, it's too late. I have to agree with Chet's line of thinking, even though the dealer has a duty to assist in reading tabled hands at showdown, the ultimate responsibility lies with the  owner of the hand.

Max D

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Re: seat open after not realizing it was a split pot
« Reply #12 on: May 24, 2016, 09:28:58 AM »
I agree with the reasoning and use of rule 21, if three minutes has elapsed ,as stated, we probably have passed "the green button", first riffle of the cards, or even probably have dealt the next hand.  Unfortunate for the player, but ultimately the game needs to go on, and if we have already removed the cards from the felt, how can we reconstruct the hand...
Max D
Less talking, more dealing.