Author Topic: Is it a string bet?  (Read 8050 times)

Dave Miller

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Is it a string bet?
« on: February 16, 2016, 10:41:50 AM »
I was looking over the TDA rules, and there is no clear definition of a string bet. The common definition is to bring out a stack of chips, then go back for more. Clearly, that's a string bet.

Recently, players have asked me about a couple specific situations, and I couldn't find anything in TDA rules that specifically defines a string bet. (Nor Robert's Rules for that matter.) That leaves me to wonder if these specific actions are string bets or not.


1) A player takes a stack of chips in hand, and in front of his cards, makes a small stack (say 4 or 5 chips), then makes another stack of equal size, (maybe a third stack, etc).

Is it a string bet?

Does it matter if he does or doesn't bet everything in his hand?


2) A player takes a stack of chips in hand, and in front of his cards, begins dropping chips one at a time, forming a stack below his hand.

Is that a string bet?

Does it matter if he eventually bets everything in his hand?
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Max D

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Re: Is it a string bet?
« Reply #1 on: February 16, 2016, 01:33:16 PM »
Dave,

I found in Roberts rule (11) this definition and this is what I use.
"At pot-limit and no-limit play, the player must either use a verbal statement giving the amount of the raise or put chips into the pot in a single motion.  Otherwise, it is a string bet."

I think the important thing is the single motion, many player will take a stack and drop some chip in one motion, as long as they donít go back and put more they are ok.  Off course the safest for players is to announce the bet then they can do whatever they want. 

For scenario one if there is not a betting line it is harder to determine.  Probably need to make the players aware of the virtual betting line.  Once the betting line is determined then anything more than a single motion passing the line is a string bet.

For scenario two I have seen it often as long as it is a single motion forward he can drop the bet chip by chip, he just canít come back over the line and add more.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2016, 03:21:21 PM by Max D »
Max D
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chet

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Re: Is it a string bet?
« Reply #2 on: February 17, 2016, 05:29:31 PM »
Dave:

I believe that it is important to define what area you mean by "in front of his cards". 

All players need some "work space", usually to stack chips, look at cards, arrange chips for the forthcoming action, etc.  As long as the chips are in that "work space", I would NOT consider multiple moves to be a string bet. 

However, if the original chip "drop" was in front of the "work space" into an area of the table where the player usually puts chips that are "bet", then any move to add chips would have to be considered a string bet. 

A good dealer will soon recognize what would constitute "work space" and make a decision accordingly.

Chet

Max D

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Re: Is it a string bet?
« Reply #3 on: February 17, 2016, 05:34:39 PM »
I really like the term workspace and I agree that most dealers would have a good idea of what it is.  Off course if you have a betting line then no issues, but not all card rooms have them.
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Dave Miller

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Re: Is it a string bet?
« Reply #4 on: February 17, 2016, 06:13:45 PM »
Workspace.  I like that.

In these cases, it was in the betting area. IE, forward of the line, if there was one, NOT in the workspace. 

Everyone I talk to agrees that scenario 1 is not a string, but disagree on scenario 2 - which is why I'm here asking the experts.

Thanks.
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chet

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Re: Is it a string bet?
« Reply #5 on: February 18, 2016, 08:28:06 AM »
Dave:

Since we now know there is a betting line and that the players hand was in front of the betting line:

1.  I agree this is not a string bet, the number of "piles or stacks" doesn't matter.  PROVIDED, he puts ALL of the chips that crossed the line into the bet.

2.  I don't believe this is a string bet either, as long as he does not go back to his chip stack for additional chips.  Remember, the betting action has to be in one motion UNLESS the player has verbally stated an amount and has to go back to his stack to get sufficient chips for that amount.  Again, lacking any verbal amount, any chips crossing the line must stay in the pot.  I don't see any difference between dropping chips one at a time or pushing a stack, what crosses the line, goes into the pot (again lacking a verbal statement of an amount).

Chet

MikeB

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Re: Is it a string bet?
« Reply #6 on: February 18, 2016, 08:26:48 PM »
I found in Roberts rule (11) this definition and this is what I use.
"At pot-limit and no-limit play, the player must either use a verbal statement giving the amount of the raise or put chips into the pot in a single motion.  Otherwise, it is a string bet."

Interesting topic.

Regarding string bet, at the most general level, it's a string bet if the first action is a bet, the player stops, then adds to the bet.

This raises the question of what a bet is. At the most general level the TDA says a player bets "by verbal declaration or pushing out chips" (Rule 37-A).

So what is "pushing out chips"? As general guidelines from the TDA Rules: A) chips released to hit the table surface (Rule 45); B) In one continuous motion (Rule 42). However, even though the TDA has generally recognized "chips released" instead of "forward motion", this doesn't preclude a TD from declaring forward motion to bind a bet...  And I think this is key: if it looks like a bet in the floorperson's eyes, it's a bet: it's player's responsibility to make his actions clear (Rules 2 and 42). Also nothing in TDA specifically precludes use of a betting line or staging area. So to a great extent, if it looks like a bet from the floor's POV, it's a bet, and if the player didn't intend to bet, it's his fault for doing whatever it was to provoke the ruling as a bet.

SO, looking at examples:

Example 1: It's string bet IF "making a small stack in front of your cards" is the house standard for a bet. I'd say within reason if those chips are cut out relatively close to the guy's cards they wouldn't be a bet, but it's a matter of degree... if he extends his arm and is stacking up chips in a continuous motion, then goes back for more, it is a string.

It would matter if he bets everything in his hand if the house uses a forward motion rule and rules everything extended forward past a betting line or an imaginary plane to be bound by forward motion.

Example 2: Personally I don't like the "chip at a time dribble" bet, and if those chips aren't streaming like water at the first hesitation I'll rule whatever was released and hit the table as a bet. For me, what matters more than "eventually betting everything in his hand" is whether there is even the slightest hesitation in continuously releasing those chips.

All this can be seen another way: anything other than cutting out your bet in reasonable proximity to your cards in your own "personal staging area" and pushing that amount out in one motion is at risk of interpretation by the floor to be a bet in amount other than what the player intended. Whatever the floor rules is final and it's the players responsibility if the floor rules other than what the players "intention" was (Rules 2 and 42).

Thoughts?
« Last Edit: February 19, 2016, 12:16:54 AM by MikeB »

Dave Miller

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Re: Is it a string bet?
« Reply #7 on: February 19, 2016, 12:10:16 PM »
Thanks for all the replies so far. Keep them coming!


For what it's worth, I'm referring to placing chips well in front of the cards, beyond the line if there was one.

I realize that 'the line' can be a whole separate topic, but in this case, it defines the bet area vs the workspace area.

Scenario A, bring out more chips than necessary, and stacking them in the bet area, even if they are in multiple stacks, then bringing the excess chips back, is as far as I can tell, a universally accepted method. Not a string bet.

Based on that, I rule that Scenario B, the 'dribble', even for less than the total number of chips in hand, is acceptable. MikeB points out that the speed of the dribble can be a factor. I agree.

At the time, I ruled that it was acceptable, but that I'd look into it. This thread is the result.

Oddly, during the game and objection, nobody mentioned that the dribble included a count. The blinds were 200/400 and the player had five 1K chips and dribbled them, counting them in the process. When he said "One..." that could be interpreted as a verbal declaration. The bet should have been one chip instead of the 5 he ended up dropping.
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown.
But how much does it cost to knock on wood?

BillM16

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Re: Is it a string bet?
« Reply #8 on: March 01, 2016, 10:49:35 AM »
I hold to one forward motion with two variations.

The first is pushing chips forward that are sitting on the felt.  All of those chips comprise the total bet.  For example, if the player pushes two stacks of 50,000 forward the bet is 100,000.  The player may not remove 25,000 from one of the forward stacks to make the bet 75,000.  This is true even though it is still one forward motion.  The chips were on the table so the bet is 100,000.

The second is carrying chips forward in midair in a single motion and then cutting chips out on the table.  In this variation, I hold that a player may bring chips back in a single motion.  For example, if a player carries 100,000 forward and cuts out three stacks of 25,000 the bet is 75,000 and he can bring back 25,000 so long as they didn't hit the table.

In other words, for me, a bet is a combination of a single forward motion that places chips onto the felt.

To see other variations you will find this part of the TDA Summit 2015 interesting to watch.  Go to the 3:42 timeline on the video.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bc_TpYIpiD0

Regards,
B~


Max D

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Re: Is it a string bet?
« Reply #9 on: March 01, 2016, 12:08:53 PM »
Bill's description is my experience as well.
Max D
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