Author Topic: Rule 17b: The hand he paid to see...since when?  (Read 12174 times)

ersta

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Re: Rule 17b: The hand he paid to see...since when?
« Reply #15 on: February 05, 2016, 08:22:36 AM »
Hi Ersta and thanks for raising these questions. In answer to your points....

First, thanks all for your effords to reply to my post. I disagree with the rule because not showing your cards is part of the game too.
This is very true. But in the case where on the river you bet and I call your bet I'm doing so with the understanding that at the very least I will be able to see your cards since I called you.. Hence the phrase / idioma / or saying "I paid to see that hand". But it's not that I literally elected to "pay" to see the hand, I just called the bettor on the river and I have an inalienable right to see the hand if I so request.

About folding the winning hand.....I also believe that mistakes caused by stupidity, ignorance or mere inattention are part of the game, so folding a winning hand is the player's own responsibility.
Absolutely it is, that's why the TDA membership never adopted either "winning hand must always be shown" or "all cards must always be shown". The only exception recognized being the case where there is aggressive action on the river... callers of that last aggressor have a right to see his hand on request because they paid (called) the bet amount.

But when I read rule 17b (and maybe it is because my lack of understanding the English language, I am Dutch) I read that the reason the better/raiser has to show, is because  the other player "paid to see".
Again, this is a "saying", the reality is "the other player called the aggressor's bet". We just shorten that up with the saying "I paid to see that hand".

This rule was actually adopted at the 2013 TDA Summit but was only formally written into the rules in 2015 after some other related language was cleared up. Perhaps someone can find the footage from the 2013 Summit videos on this topic, it's very interesting discussion.

Thanks again for your post!

Dear Mike,

Thank you so much for taking the time to answer my question, same goes for all the others. Things are much clearer now, I took the words too literary. Again,  I appreciate all replies.

ersta

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Re: Rule 17b: The hand he paid to see...since when?
« Reply #16 on: February 05, 2016, 08:26:43 AM »
Dave,

 Sorry it took a while to respond to your question, you asked: "But I gotta ask one more question: would you rule differently if it was a cash game rather than a tourney?" My answer is yes, of course. I'd love to have all of my opponents muck their hands when I'm in a pot...especially winners. ;D

 That's the issue here...tournament poker involves the interest of other players. Mistakes are a part of the cash game that MUST be corrected in tournament play...That's how I feel and I'm sticking too it!

 I'm glad you asked that question.

In a cashgame I would have no doubts ruling this one. A player can always muck his/her cards. Other players may ask the management to see the cards (if they suspect collusion) but it's the management who decides if a hand is shown or not.

ersta

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Re: Rule 17b: The hand he paid to see...since when?
« Reply #17 on: February 05, 2016, 08:29:51 AM »
ersta -

Note that in other rule books, the rule states that if the player being awarded the pot asks to see a folded hand, that folded hand becomes live and can win the pot should it be a superior hand. If any other player asks, the hand remains dead. Also, ANY player who was dealt in can ask.

It also states that asking to see is a privelege that will be taken away if abused / overused.

ok intersting, so this one overrules the  ""folded hand" rule. But this is no TDA rule, right?

Dave Miller

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Re: Rule 17b: The hand he paid to see...since when?
« Reply #18 on: February 05, 2016, 09:02:26 AM »
Right. Frankly, it's rare that the folded/live hand will win, so I use that rule in my games (and would like the TDA to adopt it). But it's also very rare for someone to ask to see.

Also note that I deal for a pub league. We have some very stupid players, who may actually bet and fold winning hands without realizing what they are doing. The 'live hand' rule may help reduce the number of requests to see.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2016, 09:04:10 AM by Dave Miller »
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ersta

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Re: Rule 17b: The hand he paid to see...since when?
« Reply #19 on: February 07, 2016, 04:16:00 AM »

Also note that I deal for a pub league. We have some very stupid players....

LOL!

Don't we have them all, no disrespect.