Author Topic: Mucked cards small v big blind  (Read 17060 times)

Nick C

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Re: Mucked cards small v big blind
« Reply #15 on: January 05, 2016, 01:50:02 PM »
There are rules that will support almost any decision you make. However, if the dealer prevented the all-in player from mucking there would be no need for this discussion.  What does the dealer tell the floorperson when they are called? "The small blind thought he had to call 400 more, because he didn't realize that the BB was all-in for 400, which equaled his SB." "I "screwed-up" and allowed his discards to hit the muck!" The cards were easily identifiable (as stated in the original post) therefor the discarded hand must be retrieved and the hand played out. That is in the best interest of the game...anyway that's the way I see it. ;D

Dave Miller

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Re: Mucked cards small v big blind
« Reply #16 on: January 05, 2016, 02:47:45 PM »
I've given this a lot of thought.

I'm torn between Rule 1 and the rule of One player per hand.

If the dealer prevents the SB from mucking, isn't that two players on that hand?
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown.
But how much does it cost to knock on wood?

Nick C

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Re: Mucked cards small v big blind
« Reply #17 on: January 05, 2016, 09:19:34 PM »
Dave,

 I've been involved in poker for a many years and I've been training dealers for nearly forty years. One of the (many) duties of a good dealer is to prevent a mistake before it occurs. Protecting the muck from a prematurely discarded hand is just as important as correcting an improper bet amount or preventing an out of turn player from acting, to name a few. Why would we expect a dealer to allow a player from mucking in the described situation?  I can't agree with you on this one...I also don't consider the dealer as one of the persons considered in the "one player per hand" rule. Any player at the table has a right to speak up when a mistake is about to take place. In this situation, any player could have told the SB that his hand was live.

 One of my biggest gripes on this forum has been the push for less participation from the dealers. That's right, there are too many that don't want the dealers to do much of anything because they are afraid they will make mistakes. This is a clear indication that our dealers need better training. There's nothing like watching a good dealer control the action at the table. We can't continue to "stifle" the well trained dealer because we failed to bring the poor ones up to snuff!

Dave Miller

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Re: Mucked cards small v big blind
« Reply #18 on: January 06, 2016, 07:30:29 AM »
Nick -

I'm on board with your comments. I DO think dealers should be more involved, but only to a point. For example, if the BB doesn't realize he's a blind and attempts to act first and fold, then it's fine for a dealer to return the BB's cards and ask for the blind.

But in that same line of thinking, and sorta to the point of this thread, if there is no pre-flop raise, is a BB allowed to fold in turn? I see that as no different than a player who open folds on a subsequent street. Sure, they could have checked, but they fold for whatever reason. If the BB would be discouraged or forbidden from folding, then in the original post's situation, the SB should be prevented from folding as well. But is that the case? Don't we allow the BB to make the mistake of folding when he can see the flop for free?

Therefore, in the original situation, is the SB allowed to fold or not? Until we know the answer, no player or dealer should inform the SB that there is no additional action. It's only after he attempts to fold that we ask the floorperson to get involved and potentially invoke Rule 1.
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown.
But how much does it cost to knock on wood?

BillM16

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Re: Mucked cards small v big blind
« Reply #19 on: January 06, 2016, 07:18:34 PM »
Dave, Nick, et al.,

I'm think we have isolated the point of our opinions and concern.  Nick holds that dealers have responsibility to prevent player mistakes.  I hold that players are entitled to act and make mistakes. Dave says that if it is fair for one to make a mistake it should be fair for others as well.  I realize that we all have the best interest of the game at heart.  This is an excellent point for further debate. 

When should players be allowed to act?  When should dealers prevent players from acting?

We do have rules that address different situations and (as pointed out) you can find rule(s) to fit your opinion.  But, the fundamental questions as stated here are not clearly defined.

Regards,
B~
« Last Edit: January 06, 2016, 07:20:37 PM by BillM16 »

Dave Miller

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Re: Mucked cards small v big blind
« Reply #20 on: January 07, 2016, 06:52:51 AM »
When should players be allowed to act?  When should dealers prevent players from acting?
Players should always be allowed to make mistakes.

Poker is a game of information, and observation. Consider these situations:

1 - If there is a bet, and call(s), and then an all-in raise for less than a full raise, when it comes around to the original bettor or caller(s), do we tell them they can't re-raise while they are contemplating their action?

2 - A player is about to bet out of turn. Do we stop him?

3 - At a showdown, a player shows only 1 card for the winning hand, and looks like he is going to muck the other card. Do we stop him?

Not only is situation #3 a painful lesson to learn, each situation tells the other players that the person in question is not fully aware of the rules or isn't paying attention to the game.

Similarly, if in the original post, the SB attempts to fold, whether allowed or not is up to the floor to decide. The dealer should let him attempt it because that is important information the other players are entitled to.
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown.
But how much does it cost to knock on wood?

Nick C

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Re: Mucked cards small v big blind
« Reply #21 on: January 07, 2016, 09:44:15 AM »
Dave,

 We are talking about tournament poker. We must assure that the best hand (in for all bets) gets the pot. Period! We can not allow players to muck or surrender the best hand because they didn't read it correctly. One of the dealers duties is to assist in reading hands at the showdown.
 To answer your questions: #1. No we do not tell them they can not re-raise until they attempt to do so...then it is the duty of the dealer to correct the obvious mistake.
 #2 Yes, absolutely. I would expect the dealer to prevent an out of turn player from acting prematurely. The consequences result in a high percentage of problems that we encounter on this forum every day...i.e. players reacting to the improper action, by folding calling or raising will slow down the game and have floor persons running from table to table to correct the  mistakes, especially when multiple players react.
 #3 As far as "at the showdown" a player showing one card would be unacceptable in my game. The dealer would insist that the complete hand be shown before proceeding to the next player. Remember, in order to win the pot, the complete hand must be exposed.

BillM16

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Re: Mucked cards small v big blind
« Reply #22 on: January 07, 2016, 10:17:20 AM »
2 - A player is about to bet out of turn. Do we stop him?

#2 Yes, absolutely. I would expect the dealer to prevent an out of turn player from acting prematurely.

Nick, I know you have extensive experience training dealers.  Please tell us how dealers are trained to recognize players about to bet out of turn?

Dave Miller

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Re: Mucked cards small v big blind
« Reply #23 on: January 07, 2016, 11:43:12 AM »
Dave,

 We are talking about tournament poker. We must assure that the best hand (in for all bets) gets the pot. Period! We can not allow players to muck or surrender the best hand because they didn't read it correctly. One of the dealers duties is to assist in reading hands at the showdown.
I totally agree with this statement, but don't see how it applies to the debate.


I never said the SB should be allowed to fold. Just that he must be allowed to attempt to fold.

This debate really comes down to one of two things: Should players be forced to pay for their mistakes, or should they be protected from their own ignorance? Which way will they learn faster?



2 - You would stop a player that is about to act out of turn? I will always allow it, but immediately stop any additional OOT action until the skipped player has acted.

I'm reminded of a hand I was playing where I flopped the nuts. I was about to bet. I had chips in hand, forward of my cards, when the person on my left made a bet. The dealer prevented any additional OOT action and turned to me. Since I knew the OOT bet would stand if I checked, and he would be able to reconsider if I bet, I tapped and said, "I guess I check." Several other players called. When it came back to me, I raised. The OOT player and another player called. It was a nice payday by the time it got to the showdown. If that dealer had somehow prevented the OOT bet, and I then checked, maybe he would have checked as well and the eventual pot be much smaller.


3 - At showdown, players occasionally show only 1 card, waiting to see if it's good or not. If it's good, they will then show the other card. Occasionally, they will muck the other card. On more than one occasion, I've ripped the dealer a new a-hole if he advises the player to show the second card while other players are still holding cards.


Bottom line, people have a right to be stupid.
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown.
But how much does it cost to knock on wood?

Steff0111

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Re: Mucked cards small v big blind
« Reply #24 on: January 08, 2016, 01:08:37 AM »
Quote
3 - At showdown, players occasionally show only 1 card, waiting to see if it's good or not. If it's good, they will then show the other card. Occasionally, they will muck the other card. On more than one occasion, I've ripped the dealer a new a-hole if he advises the player to show the second card while other players are still holding cards.

So what ist the status of this hand?
He didnīt muck the second card and hold it to his hand. So itīs still alive?
The hand is dead because he just has shown one card?
An other player in turn wins the pot, because he has shown both cards?
What, when the first player shows his second card later and claim the pot?

How should the dealer react? And when?

Thanks for clarification!

Dave Miller

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Re: Mucked cards small v big blind
« Reply #25 on: January 08, 2016, 06:34:55 AM »
Status? Although he didn't show both YET, he still has a live hand, and the dealer shouldn't get involved.


I occasionally do this myself when playing, so let me describe this another way.

If I have a weak hand, such as one pair with a bad kicker, I'll show the card that makes the pair, but still hold the other card. If anyone else shows a better hand, I'll turn that card face down and fold. Once everyone else folds, I'll turn my other card up. If it gets to the point where it seems like I have the winner, but there's another player holding cards, waiting to see if I'll muck my kicker, then I'll turn it up without being prompted to do so.

I've also been the other guy, holding onto my losing hand, waiting to see if the 'winner' will muck his kicker. If the dealer tells that player to show the other card, I'll tell him, in no uncertain terms, that he shouldn't get involved when there is still action pending.


Note that I deal in a poker league. It's supposed to be a friendly league. If a player only shows one card, I will not ship the pot, even if all other players have folded. I'll say something like, "Show me a winner." Afterwards I'll explain how they could have lost the pot in a casino.
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown.
But how much does it cost to knock on wood?

Nick C

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Re: Mucked cards small v big blind
« Reply #26 on: January 08, 2016, 02:21:50 PM »
Dave
 I'm trying not to be too critical but...your dealer training needs some work. How can you say: "The dealer shouldn't get involved?" On the contrary, the dealer has an obligation to insist that the player showing his hand must show the complete hand. That's it...there is no waiting to see other players cards first and then showing any card that you are holding back. When it's your turn (in the proper order of showdown), if I'm dealing and you attempt to show only one card; I will insist that your hand be properly tabled or I will call the floor for assistance. The reasons are obvious: #1 we don't need players irritating other players by showing a straight and then turning the nut flush with the other card, if needed. #2 We need to assure that the player does not have any "extra" cards and only the proper number of hole cards.

 Steff0111, I hope this will cover your earlier question. The dealer must react...it's part of his job. Control the action, keep the game moving in a smooth orderly fashion...address one player at a time, in order of showdown and all of these problems would not exist.

BillM16, you asked how a dealer can recognize a player about to act out of turn. If you've ever dealt, I'm sure you could pick up on a player about to bet before he should. I would simply say, "hold on, it's not your turn." Then I would direct the action to the proper bettor and continue. The silent dealers add to our issues. When a good dealer is in control of a table, listen to his direction and there will be far less headaches for us to deal with.


Dave Miller

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Re: Mucked cards small v big blind
« Reply #27 on: January 10, 2016, 12:52:04 PM »
Nick -

What I mean is, if players are showing and/or folding their hands, whether in proper showdown order or not, I would expect a dealer to not get involved until there was a point where more than one player still had unexposed cards, and it seemed like there would be a stand-off.

At that point, sure, showdown order prevails. But I wouldn't say, "Gotta show two cards to win." I'd more likely say, "Are you going to show both cards?" If he then asked, "Do I have to?" I'd respond, "I'm not sure I'm allowed to say..." or "You have to show it or fold it..." Just as long as he does something.

My argument is, if a player may possibly make a mistake, the dealer should not get involved to prevent it, but only to handle things after the mistake is made.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2016, 01:07:07 PM by Dave Miller »
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown.
But how much does it cost to knock on wood?

Nick C

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Re: Mucked cards small v big blind
« Reply #28 on: January 10, 2016, 09:01:40 PM »
Dave,

 I fully understand what you're saying...I just don't agree. I wanted to address this earlier from a prior post of yours. You mentioned the player that "open folds" when he could have checked. ::) To me, that might be the single worst act any player can do. It  offers no protection to other players still in the hand, and can only raise questions of collusion or chip dumping! Period! On your turn to act, when not facing a bet, you may check or bet...that's it. You should NEVER be allowed to fold. That's the way I see it. Open fold...ridiculous! >:(

Steff0111

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Re: Mucked cards small v big blind
« Reply #29 on: January 11, 2016, 04:05:14 AM »
Nick, thanks for your confirmation!
We have a proper showdown order. So, oneone should be allowed just to show one card!
I would stop the other players, when they would try to act "in turn", because it is not their turn.
Action is pending: Tableing the second card!

There are maximum two options in this situation:
1st: Table both cards to claim the pot
2nd: Muck both cards without facing a bet on the river (when accepted)