Author Topic: UTG act before receive cards  (Read 7227 times)

Mateus93

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UTG act before receive cards
« on: September 14, 2015, 12:02:39 PM »
Hi all

I see many players on UTG betting before receive their cards in tournaments, its looks like a straddle used in cash games.

i discussing with some friends they say thats ok to do that, they defend that its UTG time to act so he can do that.
but IMO its not fair, i found nothing on TDA rule that says "player must have a live hand to make a bet" but betting before receive the hand he can change the result of the hand, its like annouce "im betting with out see my cards".

is UTG able to bet before dealer end the distribute the cards, or not ?

thank you

Dave Miller

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Re: UTG act before receive cards
« Reply #1 on: September 14, 2015, 01:34:04 PM »
It's no different than betting or checking dark on subsequent streets.

It's a different type of strategy. Personally, I think it's kinda dumb, but legal.
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown.
But how much does it cost to knock on wood?

Nick C

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Re: UTG act before receive cards
« Reply #2 on: September 15, 2015, 01:25:17 AM »
I agree with Dave. It is allowed, but the player will risk the consequences if the hand is fouled. As long as the player acts in turn with a proper action or amount, it's okay.

Brian Vickers

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Re: UTG act before receive cards
« Reply #3 on: September 24, 2015, 02:31:34 PM »
A player isn't required to look at his hand, he's only required to act in turn.  If he's under the gun, then he's in turn.  I can't think of any reason there should be a problem with him setting his chips out prior to the deal as he's only putting himself at a big disadvantage.

BillM16

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Re: UTG act before receive cards
« Reply #4 on: September 26, 2015, 08:59:36 AM »
A player isn't required to look at his hand, he's only required to act in turn.  If he's under the gun, then he's in turn.  I can't think of any reason there should be a problem with him setting his chips out prior to the deal as he's only putting himself at a big disadvantage.

I have seen this played out in what is intended to be an entertaining manner:  Before the cards are dealt, the UTG says he going all-in blind.  Someone asks is that binding?  Others laugh or make other jokes.  If the dealer simply ignores the jocularity and proceeds with the deal then UTG might shove or fold in turn, once he sees his hand, and nobody usually complains.

The problem, as the OP points out, is finding a TDA rule that answers the unanswered question:  Is this binding?  The OP talked about betting with chips that looked like a straddle.  Above, is what seems to be a verbal declaration.  When is it binding?

22:  New Hand & New Limits
A new level will not be announced until the clock reaches zero. The new level applies to the next hand. A hand begins on the first riffle, push of the shuffler button, or on the dealer push.

Can the last sentence in Rule #22 be taken out of context and used to establish when a hand begins as far as verbal declarations or other forms of betting?  If yes, then what about Action Out of Turn?



   
« Last Edit: September 26, 2015, 09:02:57 AM by BillM16 »

Mateus93

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Re: UTG act before receive cards
« Reply #5 on: September 29, 2015, 09:14:58 AM »
A player isn't required to look at his hand, he's only required to act in turn.  If he's under the gun, then he's in turn.  I can't think of any reason there should be a problem with him setting his chips out prior to the deal as he's only putting himself at a big disadvantage.

I agree but it may cause some problens:

1- act before see cards can change the natural result of the hand. ex: player A act on UTG before receive cards (announce that raise without see the cards), player B goes all in shot stack, player C goes all in over the top to player only agains the short stack considering UTG hand its too random once he didnt see his cards alredy... so maybe if utg didnt announce he didnt look his cards player could not shoved. maybe just maybe.

2- UTG raise before receive cards, but on his turn but without cards, UTG + 1 do the same think after the UTG act, and so MP1... the act can go to button before dealer has given a single card lol... looks like stupid, but in a table with many friends its not so hard to happen.

Nick C

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Re: UTG act before receive cards
« Reply #6 on: September 30, 2015, 03:17:12 AM »
Mateus93:

 The situation you described is perfectly legal because the players have acted in turn. If the players in your game insist on this unusual practice, you might want to introduce a house rule that would "bind" any verbal declaration as soon as the dealer has "pitched" the first card.

 Very few players would risk the consequences if they were not serious about their premature verbal declaration. Commit them to their action and they could learn a "costly" lesson. We certainly can not allow players to make announcements of intended wagers, only to have them change their minds after getting a "reaction" from another player.

Think before you speak, because what you say will be binding!