2015 Rules 1.0 - #14 Live Cards at Showdown

[Nick C]

Bill,
 First of all, I have some openings for my next poker dealer course...drop me a line if your interested.

 I'm glad that both you and Mike selected the same example (Phil Ivey's screw-up)https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6OzlLQUNU8c

 Before I even get into Phil Ivey, I want to point out that your mention of Robert's Rules is strictly for cash games. We need to know the difference. In a cash game, I don't care if a player overlooks his winning hand...that's part of the game. It should not be a part of tournament poker. The time for a player to misread his hand is during a betting round...facing a bet and folds, a simple mistake. However, once that player has reached the showdown he should never lose if holding the best hand!

 Back to Phil Ivey...I have some questions for you: How far did the player Ivey faced advance?
                                                                     How would you like being eliminated by that player later in the tournament, because he had more chips than he should have? It's happened too many times to count on youtube videos I've watched.
                                                                      How do you know that Phil didn't intentionally dump his chips?
                                                                      How would you feel if: you were on the bubble and could have moved into the money, if the correct player got the pot?
I could continue but if you don't understand where I'm going, I'm wasting everyone's time.

Mike and Bill, please take a look at this one and tell me this is acceptable: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_n-FWeY7avw

[BillM16]

Bill,
 First of all, I have some openings for my next poker dealer course...drop me a line if your interested.

Can I earn a free scholarship if I answer the remaining questions correctly?

In a cash game, I don't care if a player overlooks his winning hand...that's part of the game. It should not be a part of tournament poker.

Nick, I fully realize that this is your opinion.  However, I am also quite glad that yours is a minority opinion as I fully agree with the majority who believe it is rightfully part of tournament poker.

Back to Phil Ivey...I have some questions for you: How far did the player Ivey faced advance?
                                                                     How would you like being eliminated by that player later in the tournament, because he had more chips than he should have? It's happened too many times to count on youtube videos I've watched.
                                                                      How do you know that Phil didn't intentionally dump his chips?
                                                                      How would you feel if: you were on the bubble and could have moved into the money, if the correct player got the pot?
I could continue but if you don't understand where I'm going, I'm wasting everyone's time.

Nick, none of these things matter one iota to me as it is merely part of the game that all good players learn to overcome.  It is the weak player that needs and wants your help to make the game easier for them.  As to the question regarding Phil - it doesn't deserve an answer.

Mike and Bill, please take a look at this one and tell me this is acceptable: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_n-FWeY7avw

Nick, this is yet another perfect example!  This is entirely acceptable and a fantastic call by Lizano.  Please realize that I do understand you.  This is a perfect example of a horrible mistake Pantaleo!  Now, you see this as a flaw in the game that needs to be corrected by rule makers.  I see this as an integral facet of the game that makes it so interesting and challenging.  Why in the world did Pantaleo fold?  Don't try to convince me he was dumping chips; that would be insane.  He folded because he was absolutely convinced that he was beat!  Perhaps his ego even got in the way, so he didn't want to show Lizano his bluff hand.  Maybe, he even wanted the cameras and the world to know just how certain he was beaten as proven by his willingness to fold with absolutely nothing at risk except his pride!  That is great poker buddy and I wouldn't want you or anyone else to change it.  To me it would be sacrilege for someone to step in here and pull his hand from the muck and give him half of the pot.

I guess I'll be paying full price for your poker dealer course .

[Nick C]

Bill,
 You keep telling me you fully understand how I feel, yet you fail to explain how, in either situation, the errors could not occur if either player were all-in! Phil Ivey could never have lost that pot if he was all-in, and the other player (in the other video) would have received half the pot! II find it totally ridiculous that "protection" is only extended for all-in situations. I hope we're still around when the TDA members realize how asinine the current showdown rules are and the proper change is made. You refer to me as your buddy, that might be the case some day if we meet...right now I feel like your "punching bag!" 

 As far as taking my poker dealing course, my students learn more than the mechanics of the game. Poker ethics and etiquette are also an integral part of their training. I'm not sure you'd be interested.

For the 100th time, just in case any readers missed it: Why should tournament players only be guaranteed that the proper player receives the pot when someone is all-in at the showdown?? Why?
 

[BillM16]

Nick, I didn't mean to imply that I understand your feelings, only your written words.  I meant no harm and I'm sorry if I made this personal, I will be careful to keep this strictly professional in the future.  Please accept my sincere apologies.

[Nick C]

Bill,

 No apology necessary... like you I'm only trying to express my feelings, based on many years of poker, for the betterment of the game!

May the flops be with you...and don't muck any winners at the showdown!